July 6, 2012

Diversity before Diversity: Duke Kahanamoku

Exactly a century ago, Duke Kahanamoku (1890-1968) became a celebrated Olympic swimmer and the single most important individual ever in surfing. From a history of surfing:
In 1912, Hawaiian beach boy Duke Paoa Kahanamoku was already famous as a surfer and swimmer. He was credited with developing the flutter kick to replace the scissor kick in freestyle swimming [he may have picked it up from visiting Australians] and was the three-time world record holder in the 100-meter freestyle. As a surfer, Duke was one of Hawai'i's best ocean watermen, a beach boy and one of the founders of the Hui Nalu Club. Duke was a fine figure of a Polynesian, slim and muscular and built for speed, blessed with extraordinarily long hands and feet. 
In 1912, Duke passed through southern California en route to the summer Olympics in Stockholm, Sweden. His surfing demonstrations at Corona del Mar and Santa Monica caused a sensation much greater than Freeth's. Duke became world famous by winning an Olympic gold medal in the 100-meter freestyle in Stockholm and again in Antwerp in 1920. Touted as the fastest swimmer alive, Duke was on the road constantly, giving swimming exhibitions around Europe, the United States and the world. He also became a favorite of Hollywood casting directors, playing Aztec chiefs, Hindu thiefs and Arab princes. On weekends he would take his Hollywood friends surfing, and everywhere he could, Duke used his fame to introduce the world to the sport of surfing.

Most notably, he galvanized Australia with a visit in 1914, launching that country's great tradition of surfing. 

Other trivia: He won a silver medal at his third Olympics in 1924, losing to Johnny Weismuller (who went on to play Tarzan), while his brother won bronze. Then he played on the U.S. water polo team at the 1932 L.A. Olympics. His 1925 rescue using his surfboard of eight drowning men from a ship sinking off Newport Beach, CA was big news nationally. 

"Duke" was his given name, not his feudal title, although his parents were from well-known (but not royal) Native Hawaiian families.

One of the points I'm trying to make with this Diversity Before Diversity series is that when thinking about the past, we shouldn't project how African-Americans were treated to other minorities. It's not accurate, and it's not fair to blacks. 

Here are some Long Beach, CA newspaper accounts from 99 years ago, which I doubt would have been written in the same tone about a black sportsman:
1913 July 11. Long Beach Press 
HAWAIIAN SWIMMER IS GUEST OF CITY 
Duke Kahanamoku, the wonderful Hawaiian swimmer, who equaled the world's record for swimming fifty yards at the Los Angeles Athletic Club last night enjoyed luncheon at the Hotel Virginia, spent the day in Long Beach and was shown about the city by Lorne Middough and other members of the Poly High Water Polo team. 
... He is a remarkable athlete and called forth the admiration of a large audience when he tied the world's fifty-yard mark last night. 
1913 July 12. Daily Telegram 
LOCAL BOY RACES HAWAIIAN CHAMP 
The great Hawaiian swimmer and six members of the Hawaiian team spent several hours in Long Beach yesterday. They came upon the invitation of Pete Lenz. They couldn't resist the surf and the Duke gave a thrilling exhibition of surfboard riding. Thousands of people enjoyed watching him. Many people here have expressed a wish that the Bath House company would present frequent surfboard riding exhibitions such as was offered yesterday. It is believed they would prove a big card. 
1913 January 29. Long Beach Press 
HAWAIIAN SWIMMER BATTLES WITH BIG EEL 
As a result of a battle to the death with a ten-foot eel, the largest ever seen here. Duke Kahanamoku, who won the world's championship at Stockholm, is today minus the index finger on his right hand and his swimming prowess may be permanently impaired. 
The swimmer encountered the eel while practicing for the Australian swimming championships off here, and after a fight lasting several minutes, choked it to death. He was exhausted when he reached the shore, with the eel's body in tow.

I suspect, now that I think about it, that Kahanamoku played a role in the slow change in racial attitudes in Southern California, which became more Hawaiian over the course of the 20th Century. Northeastern Yankee adventurers had married into Hawaiian aristocratic families, which created a ruling class that was part mixed race. (For example, George Clooney's character in The Descendants is 1/32nd Hawaiian.) To water-oriented young Southern California fellows like the Poly High water polo team, Kahanamoku -- swimmer, surfer, and eel-battler extraordinaire -- must have seemed like the coolest guy in the whole world. (What did California proto-surfers in 1913 say instead of "the coolest?" The keenest? The 23-Skidooest?)

By the way, a key figure in the revival of the old Hawaiian sport, who paved the way for Kahanamoku's exhibitions, was the great writer Jack London (Call of the Wild). London wrote extensively about surfing from 1907 to 1911 (here's an extract), creating global excitement.

Mark Twain had tried surfing in Hawaii decades before, but immediately wiped out. His short description of the sport in Roughing It did not generate much intrigue, although this picture from the first edition of Twain's book has a fairly contemporary-sounding caption:
In one place we came upon a large company of naked natives, of both sexes and all ages, amusing themselves with the national pastime of surf- bathing. Each heathen would paddle three or four hundred yards out to sea (taking a short board with him), then face the shore and wait for a particularly prodigious billow to come along; at the right moment he would fling his board upon its foamy crest and himself upon the board, and here he would come whizzing by like a bombshell! It did not seem that a lightning express-train could shoot along at a more hair-lifting speed. I tried surf-bathing once, subsequently, but made a failure of it. I got the board placed right, and at the right moment, too; but missed the connection myself. The board struck the shore in three-quarters of a second, without any cargo, and I struck the bottom about the same time, with a couple of barrels of water in me. None but natives ever master the art of surf-bathing thoroughly.

113 comments:

Anonymous said...

Surfing is cool.

map said...

Jack London and Mark Twain wrote about surfing?

agnostic said...

Surfing was born in the Jazz Age and re-born during the Rock N Roll Age. (Both rising-crime, back-to-nature times.)

I figured water skiing would have been invented then too, and sure enough it was, during the Roaring Twenties. No diversity angle, though -- invented by a white guy from Minnesota.

Fitzgerald's "proto-Gatsby" short story "Winter Dreams" is set in Minnesota. In it, the object of the protagonist's fascination is a female golfer socialite. After sneaking out of a boring party, she asks him to drive a motor boat so she can water ski at night.

That story was collected in a 1926 book, and water skiing was invented in 1922, so it must have caught on incredibly fast.

Wonder if there are any Art Deco surfboards or water skis out there?

Anonymous said...

I wonder if Mayor Bradley was influenced by Duke. Could Mayor Braley swim? It would have been cool if the first black president could swim.
I'm kidding. I'M KIDDING!!!

Sam said...

"One of the points I'm trying to make with this Diversity Before Diversity series is that when thinking about the past, we shouldn't project how African-Americans were treated to other minorities. It's not accurate, and it's not fair to blacks."

We also should recognize that blacks weren’t really treated anywhere near as bad as the pseudo-historical narrative likes to pretend.

"What did California proto-surfers in 1913 say instead of "the coolest?" The keenest? The 23-Skidooest?"

The bee’s knees

Anonymous said...

So it was Duke Kahanamoku who developed the flutter kick? That brown bastard! He was responsible for years of frustration when I was a kid! Every adult who ever tried to teach me how to swim -- school, summer camp, even my own mother -- insisted on the flutter kick, and I could never master it. I swim fine now, using a frog kick, which I basically taught myself. But to this day if I try to get anywhere using a flutter kick I just thrash helplessly in the water!

Anonymous said...

He won a silver medal at his third Olympics in 1924, losing to Johnny Weismuller (who went on to play Tarzan), while his brother won bronze.

Gosh, I hate to have to point this out - MacWhiskey's head is gonna swell up so big that his MacYarmulke is likely to be launched into the stratosphere - but it is widely believed that Doris Duke ["the world's richest girl"] may have gone native with Duke and especially with his younger brother, Samuel Kahanamoku [the bronze medalist].

You can see numerous pictures of them together [be sure to scroll through all the PDFs] at the website of Doris Duke's Hawaiian mansion, Shangri La [courtesy of the Doris Duke Foundation for Islamic Art - yes, ISLAMIC art - to go with her camel collection].

More on Doris's multi-ethnic conquests at Wikipedia: As crazy nymphomaniac spoiled-rotten hot-mess celebritard slut chicks go, she actually sounds like she led a pretty interesting [though terribly tragic] life.


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Johnny Weismuller (who went on to play Tarzan)

Weissmuller died down in Mexico, back in the days of diversity-before-diversity, prior to the rise of neo-Mayan human sacrifice, when Mexico was still an acceptable destination for the kool kidz [like Mitt Romney's grandpa].

BTW, Weissmuller also counted a Mexicane amongst his many wives.


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For example, George Clooney's character in The Descendants is 1/32nd Hawaiian.

Don't look now, but THE SCOTS-IRISH ARE COMING!!!.

Anonymous said...

So what, even Jesse Owens cheered in Nazi Germany. Since every example you gave can be compared to this and everyone knows the travails of the scots-irish after that, all these examples are pointless.

(though the Jesse Owens bit is not quite common knowledge)

Anonymous said...

So the underlying message here from
Steve is "Let's not give Asians too much leeway when it comes to Recognising that Asians experienced racism in the past and in the present because there was this Hawaiian boy who was popular."

Hearing Steve talk about how it is "not fair to blacks" when comparing a groups history of discrimination is laughable. Since when did Steve turn into a swpl liberal? Isn't this kind of pandering to black history, which we are already beaten over the head with everyday, the kind of thing that Steve normally criticizes?

What this shows, more than anything, is that white people are always willing to let blacks have advantages built into society if it means that some white people will get something usefull out of it.

Kylie said...

"One of the points I'm trying to make with this Diversity Before Diversity series is that when thinking about the past, we shouldn't project how African-Americans were treated to other minorities. It's not accurate, and it's not fair to blacks."

True. In the past, African-Americans were treated quite differently from other minorities. We need to be clear about that, just as we need to be clear about the reasons why.

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSjMNJaen44&feature=g-u-u

Laguna Beach Fogey said...

Thanks, Steve.

It's amusing to me to see how much Whites fawn over the exotics--then and now!

A couple of my elderly clients in Corona del Mar (CDM) had fathers who surfed with Duke.

They still talk about it as if Jesus Himself once rode the waves in Southern California.

I'm sure there's a commemorative plaque or memorial somewhere...

Duke may have been a wonderful surfer in his day, but I'll take Tom, Wally, Woody, Greg, Laird, et al.

P.S. Reds don't surf!

Anonymous said...

Yes Steve, continue with your "diversity before diversity" series. NOTHING can change the fact that Anglo-American politicians in the first half of the 20th century, with a great deal of support of America's mostly northern European population-descended population at that time, tried to pass legislation barring excessive immigration from southern Europe, on the grounds that southern Europeans were biologically inferior and that, if allowed to enter the U.S in large numbers, would eventually destroy the U.S. Saying that an immigrant from Sicily in 1920 was treated with the same amount of respect and consideration as an immigrant from England is just so absurd that I am lost for words trying to rebute this. It is like someone is lying straight to my face with no shame or remorse, and I am supposed to "debate" him.

And no one ever claimed that southern Europeans were treated as badly as black. Southern Euros were seen as intermediary between northern Europeans and blacks: not as good as the former, but not as bad as the latter. I guess you have difficulty understanding the concept of gradation.

You obviosuly have a political agenda. Steve. You want to classify as many people as white just to get them off affirmative action and leave it just for blacks. I want affirmative action to end for all, but this is besides the point. It is YOU who are being unfair to Americans of southern European descent by claiming they never suffered ANY discrimination from the Anglo majority. This is blatantly false. I would love to see if a Scicilian immigrant back in 1920 who made it big and became rich would be admitted into a WASP country club. We both know the answer to this one.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of Jack London, it's not widely known that when his crazy mother lost her mind, he was basically raised by a freed slave named Virginia Prentiss. London grew so close to her that even as an adult she called him "my white pickaninny" and he signed his letters to her "your son."

Prentiss loaned London the money to buy his first oyster pirating boat, and after London got rich, like an NBA star he bought Prentiss a house and (despite being an atheist) donated a huge amount of money to her AME church. All this while being a pretty hardcore Anglo-Saxon supremacist.

Carol said...

agnostic, surfing predates the jazz age, even the ragtime age, perhaps by centuries.

Pincher Martin said...

Steve,

I'm really enjoying this "Diversity before Diversity" series. It's a clever way of highlighting how distorted American history has become when viewed through the lens of the modern diversity movement.

As you point out, this is unfair to African-Americans, who really were treated with unique barbarity. But it's also unfair to white Americans, who often have to defend their entire history as if it were nothing more than one long continuous series of outrages committed against all nonwhites.

May I suggest another possible inclusion for "Diversity before Diversity"? How about Chang and Eng Bunker, the original Siamese twins?

The Bunker duo traveled to the United States in the Jacksonian Era, where they did a tour of public exhibitions over several years. They eventually earned enough money to buy a farm in North Carolina. They married two local white women, had a brood of mixed race kids, and were well-liked by their neighbors. They also bought several slaves. When one troublesome slave escaped and was shot by a neighbor, the Bunkers refused compensation for their loss, saying they were glad to be rid of him and thanked the neighbor for his assistance in the matter.

It's remarkable to what degree the twins adopted the principles and attitudes of their home state. They stoutly defended the southern cause in the run-up to the Civil War. (They did not, however, care for the rise of the Know Nothing movement.) Two of their sons fought for the Confederacy. When the war was over, they grieved to lose their slaves. None of this appears to have been a pose. They were genuinely committed southerners.

The Bunkers appear to have been well liked by almost all their southern neighbors. While curiosity about their physical condition was the initial reason they attracted attention, they were excellent conversationalists and dignified men who easily made friends, including with many in high places.

About the only time the Bunkers suffered anything resembling a local protest was when they proposed marriage to two young white sisters, who promptly accepted their proposal. While some of this was due to race, part of it was also due to the incongruent nature of the union: a necessary and incestuous ménage à quatre involving two twin brothers and two sisters. This seems to have been just too much for some locals. But once the parents of the two sisters were okay with it, and with the intervention of a friendly judge the Bunker twins knew, the protest (which was never large) died down and the marriage went forward.

The twins deformity didn't discourage their procreation. From the Wikipedia site:

"Chang and Eng Bunker fathered a total of 21 children and their descendants, including several sets of non-conjoined twins, now number more than 1,500. Many of their descendants continue to reside in the vicinity of Mt. Airy and descendants of both brothers continue to hold joint reunions. Two hundred descendants reunited in Mount Airy in July 2011 for the two hundredth birthday of the twins, which was the twenty-second annual reunion.

Prominent descendants include United States Air Force Major General Caleb V. Haynes who was a grandson of Chang Bunker through his daughter Margaret Elizabeth "Lizzie" Bunker. General Haynes's son, Vance Haynes, earned a doctorate in geosciences, performed foundational fieldwork at Sandia Cave to determine the timeline of human migration through North America, and served as professor at several universities. Alex Sink, former Chief Financial Officer of Florida, is a great-granddaughter of Chang Bunker, and was the Democratic nominee in the 2010 Florida gubernatorial election.

Eng's grandson through his daughter Rosella – George F Ashby – was President of the Union Pacific Railroad in the 1940s.

Anonymous said...

The Duke was probably one of the greatest sprint freestylers and in his day a lot of practice was only 3mths out of the year and 3,000 meters at the most. Sprint swimmers now usually practice year round and average from a low of 1,000 to a high of 7,000 to 9,000 meters depending if they are resting before a major meet. The last AP on the olympic team was 1976. Most now are half asian like the black-asian swimmer Lia Neal in the women side who also is a sprint freestyler.

Anonymous said...

For one thing they wouldn't have allowed black people in the pool. There's a story of Sammy Davis insisting on using the pool in a Las Vegas casino where he was the headliner and a couple of hours later he walked past and they had emptied the pool completely in order to remove the contamination that his Negroness had brought to the water. Supposedly. Another possibility is that they had to empty the pool for maintenance and he assumed it was for racial reasons due to paranoia.

America was always full of contradictions - Cab Calloway was the #1 leading musical act in the '30s but he still couldn't sleep in Southern hotels. His band had its own train with sleeping cars. Just because there were prominent blacks/Hawaiians/ Hispanics/ whatever doesn't mean that there wasn't racism in other contexts. A lot of these were what we would call "tokens" nowadays. You could love George Washington Carver or Rita Hayworth and hate every other black or Hispanic person.

Kylie said...

"You could love George Washington Carver or Rita Hayworth and hate every other black or Hispanic person."

Rita Hayworth was of Irish-English and Spanish ancestry. She and her father worked in Mexico when she was a teen but she had no mestizo blood so far as I know.

Anonymous said...

Ron Guhname has shown that WASPS have been correct at all times that immigrants lower the quality of civic life:

http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_archive.html
near bottom
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=26188478&postID=2489087754197860379

WASPs rule! I wrote in a recent post that I was getting the sense that Americans with Protestant European backgrounds were the best behaved. So I decided to sum all my prior post numbers that dealt with ethnicity and moral behavior to assess this idea systematically. I followed the simple strategy of assigning a rank for each behavior for each of the 8 ethnic groups with sufficiently large sample sizes. Jews were often ignored in previous posts since one must turn to the religion rather than the ethnicity variable to get estimates, but I wanted to include them, so I calculated numbers and then ranks for them.

I included all variables that I have posted on--here's a list of them: okay to cheat on taxes; drinks too much; ethnocentric; dirty house; frequents prostitutes; promiscuous men over 30; feel that infidelity is not wrong; gay; lesbian; husbands and wives who cheat; fathers divorcing mom; women arrested; and promiscuity for men and women and under. I realized that I had not posted on drug abuse so I added that to the rest. I ranked group so high numbers indicate more bad behavior, then I simply summed the 16 rankings for each ethnic group. Here are the totals:


Bad Behavior Index

Blacks 106
Mexicans 85
American Indians 85
Italians 70
Irish 67
Jews 64
Germans 56
English/Welsh 47

My hunch was correct. This pattern coincides with that feeling that goes way back among nativists that the moral quality of the country was slipping with the mass immigration from Catholic, southern and eastern European countries, and more recently in concern over immigration from Mexico.

Robert Hume

Spike Gomes said...

Here's a couple other Hawaiians in America before diversity who influenced things. Joseph Kekuku who invented the steel guitar and helped spread it's early popularity while touring and Sol Ho'opi'i, another steel guitar man who ended up being converted by Aimee Semple MacPhearson and composing evangelical music.

Anonymous said...

Flutter kick is for Aussie Craw or Freestyle since its easier for a long axle stroke like Freestyle or Backstroke than sidestroke kick would be. If you can't do a flutter kick then a frog kick that is modified for breaststokre. Actually, flutter kick is easier than a whipping frog kick is.

Anonymous said...

Kahan-Amoku? He must be "Scotch-Irish".

Truth said...

"True. In the past, African-Americans were treated quite differently from other minorities. We need to be clear about that, just as we need to be clear about the reason"

What was the reason?

Kylie said...

"4 PM
Truth said...
"True. In the past, African-Americans were treated quite differently from other minorities. We need to be clear about that, just as we need to be clear about the reason"

What was the reason?"


You quoted me out of context. What I actually wrote was:

"True. In the past, African-Americans were treated quite differently from other minorities. We need to be clear about that, just as we need to be clear about the reasons why."

My noting your disingenuous editing of my comment is all the response you're going to get from me.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous:"You obviosuly have a political agenda. Steve. You want to classify as many people as white just to get them off affirmative action and leave it just for blacks. I want affirmative action to end for all, but this is besides the point. It is YOU who are being unfair to Americans of southern European descent by claiming they never suffered ANY discrimination from the Anglo majority. This is blatantly false. I would love to see if a Scicilian immigrant back in 1920 who made it big and became rich would be admitted into a WASP country club. We both know the answer to this one."

Ah, I see that you are just limiting it to Southern Euros now!Or is it only Sicilians?

RE: your Sicilian immigrant being admitted into a country club "after making it rich,"

Dear boy, he would have been blackballed as nouveau riche.You simply must observe the social niceties.

Syon

DaveinHackensack said...

"It's amusing to me to see how much Whites fawn over the exotics--then and now!"

Kahanamoku was world-class athlete and celebrity. The attention he got seems to have been due to his accomplishments and abilities, rather than his ethnicity.

"I would love to see if a Scicilian immigrant back in 1920 who made it big and became rich would be admitted into a WASP country club."

Were there are lot of native Hawaiians in WASP country clubs? One challenge with focusing on exceptional individuals, as Steve is in this series, is that the way they were treated may not be fully representative of the way other members of their ethnic group were treated.

That said, Steve's main point is correct: blacks were treated differently and worse -- even exceptional ones. Stars such as Ella Fitzgerald were made to take the freight elevators.

DaveinHackensack said...

Kylie,

"You quoted me out of context. What I actually wrote was"

Truth didn't quote you out of context all; he just shorted "reasons why" to "reason". So why not answer the question, since you brought the subject up?

Anonymous said...

There's a story of Sammy Davis insisting on using the pool in a Las Vegas casino where he was the headliner and a couple of hours later he walked past and they had emptied the pool completely in order to remove the contamination that his Negroness had brought to the water...

The aquatics director of the local gubmint swimming pool is a white [flaming] homosexual, and he tells the white people to stay the hell away from the shallow end after the negroes have been in it [they don't ever go in the deep end since - well, just because].

He says that if you were to go in the back room and see the stuff that the system filters out of the water after they have been in the pool then it would make you vomit.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous leftist:"You obviosuly have a political agenda. Steve. You want to classify as many people as white just to get them off affirmative action and leave it just for blacks. I want affirmative action to end for all, but this is besides the point. It is YOU who are being unfair to Americans of southern European descent by claiming they never suffered ANY discrimination from the Anglo majority. This is blatantly false. I would love to see if a Scicilian immigrant back in 1920 who made it big and became rich would be admitted into a WASP country club. We both know the answer to this one."


DEar boy, it is simply too easy to pull up a list of successful, socially prominent Americans of Southern Euro descent in the pre-1945 period:

John Dos Passos

María Consuelo Iznaga y Clemens (its pretty hard to beat her in the socially elite sweepstakes. Just look her up in WIKIPEDIA)

Ernest Fenollosa

George Santayana

David Farragut

And there is the very high toned de Acosta family:

Rita de Acosta Lydig

Mercedes de Acosta

Aida de Acosta

Syon

Anonymous said...

Via WIKIPEDIA:Aida de Acosta Root Breckinridge (July 28, 1884 – May 26, 1962) was an American socialite and the first female to fly a powered aircraft solo.[1] In 1903, while in Paris with her mother, she caught her first glimpse of dirigibles. She then proceeded to take only three flight lessons, before taking the sky by herself.
Later in life, after losing sight in one eye to glaucoma, she became an advocate for improved eye care and was founder and director of the first eye bank in America.[2][3]

Aida was born in Elberon, New Jersey in 1884 to Ricardo de Acosta, a steamship executive of Cuban descent, and Micaela Hernandez de Alba y de Alba, reputedly a descendant of the Alba family, famous in the history of Spain as the Dukes of Alba.[4] Among her seven siblings were the writers and socialites Mercedes de Acosta and Rita de Acosta Lydig.

On June 27, 1903 in Paris, at the age of nineteen, Aida de Acosta charmed Brazilian pioneer aviator Alberto Santos-Dumont into showing her how to operate his personal dirigible, “No. 9”. Santos-Dumont was the toast of Paris at the time, flying his dirigible downtown to his favorite restaurant and parking it on the street while he had dinner. Acosta flew Santos-Dumont’s aircraft solo from Paris to Château de Bagatelle while Santos-Dumont rode his bicycle along below, waving his arms and shouting advice.[5]

Acosta later recalled that upon her first landing, Santos-Dumont asked her how she had fared. "It is very nice, M. Santos-Dumont," she replied. "Mademoiselle," he cried, "vous êtes la première aero-chauffeuse du monde!" ("Miss, you are the first woman aero-driver in the world!"). She was in fact the first woman to pilot any kind of motorized aircraft, nearly six months before the Wright brothers first flew in a heavier-than-air powered aircraft.[6]
The first flight ended in the polo field at Bagatelle at the northern end of the Bois de Boulogne, during a match between the American team and the British team. Spectators assisted her from the basket. After watching some polo with Santos-Dumont, Acosta climbed back into the basket and flew the machine back to Neuilly St. James, the entire trip lasting one and a half hours.

Aida de Acosta married:
Oren Root II, nephew of American statesman and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Elihu Root, in 1908; they divorced in 1922. They had a son, Oren Root III (1911-1995), and a daughter Alva de Acosta Root (born 1914 and named for suffragette-heiress Alva Belmont).[7][8][9][10][11][12][13]
Colonel Henry S. Breckinridge, whom she married in 1927 and divorced in 1947. He was attorney to Charles A. Lindbergh during the Lindbergh kidnapping case, and assistant secretary of war under Woodrow Wilson.[14]

Syon

Anonymous said...

Via WIKIPEDIA:"Rita Lydig (born Rita Hernandez de Alba de Acosta, October 1875[1]– October 27, 1929) was an American socialite regarded as "the most picturesque woman in America." She was photographed by Adolf de Meyer, Edward Steichen, and Gertrude Käsebier, sculpted in alabaster by Malvina Hoffman, and was painted by Giovanni Boldini and John Singer Sargent, among others.[2][3] She also wrote one novel, Tragic Mansions (Boni & Liveright, 1927), under the name Mrs Philip Lydig, a society melodrama described as "emotionally moving and appealing" by The New York Times.

Rita de Acosta was born in New York City in 1875 to Ricardo de Acosta, a steamship-line executive of Cuban descent, and a Spanish mother, Micaela Hernandez de Alba y de Alba, reputedly a relation of the Dukes of Alba. She had seven siblings: Joaquin, Enriqué, Ricardo, Mercedes, Aida, Maria, and Angéla.Rita de Acosta was married twice:

On January 3, 1895,[5] aged 19, she became the first wife of William Earl Dodge Stokes, a multimillionaire with whom she had a son, William Earl Dodge Stokes Jr, born January 5, 1896.[6] The marriage was unhappy, reportedly due to Stokes's temper and physical cruelty, and when it was dissolved by divorce in 1900, she received a settlement of nearly two million dollars, a record for the time. In February 1922 she testified in court against Stokes, then going through an acrimonious divorce from his second wife, stating that he used to beat her during their marriage.[7]
In 1902 she married Captain Philip M. Lydig, a retired officer in the United States Army.[8] They separated in 1914 and divorced in 1919.[9]
In 1921 Lydig announced her engagement to Reverend Percy Stickney Grant, rector of the Church of the Ascension. Their wedding plans were broken off in 1924 when Bishop William Manning refused to authorise the marriage, citing Lydig being a divorcée with two living former husbands. Rev. Grant died shortly afterwards, leaving his personal fortune to the woman he had hoped to marry, and Lydig spent large sums of money on fashion, art, furniture, and other objects to overcome her grief.[10] Heavily in debt, she was forced to sell her Washington Square home and its contents, was declared bankrupt, and died of pernicious anaemia at the Gotham Hotel shortly after, at the age of 54.[10][11]
Lydig is buried with her mother and sister Mercedes[8] at Trinity Church Cemetery in Washington Heights, New York City.


Famous for her extravagant lifestyle, '...Rita was equally welcomed in Paris, where she spent parts of each year. She would arrive at the Ritz with a hairdresser, masseuse, chauffeur, secretary, maid,... and forty Louis Vuitton trunks... In Paris, she joined ranks with musicians, artists, intellectuals, and philosophers, names like Rodin, Eleonora Duse, Yvette Guilbert etc... Impressed by Rita's innate creative spirit, Isabella Stewart Gardner, the great collector and creator of the Gardner museum in Boston, once asked their mutual friend, John Singer Sargent, why Rita had never expressed herself artistically. "Why should she?" Sargent answered, "She herself is art."[12]
Lydig lived in New York, Paris and London, and counted Edgar Degas, Auguste Rodin, Leo Tolstoy, Sarah Bernhardt, Ethel Barrymore and Claude Debussy among her friends.[10] She also supported the suffragette cause.[13][14]
Her personal wardrobe became the basis for the start of the Costume Institute at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

Syon

wwwww said...

this villain starring in bridge on the river kwai, was once one of the sexiest men in america. Sessue Hayakawa

Anonymous said...

Via WIKIPEDIA:"Mercedes de Acosta (March 1, 1893 – May 9, 1968) was an American poet, playwright, and novelist. Four of de Acosta's plays were produced, and she published a novel and three volumes of poetry. She was professionally unsuccessful but is known for her many lesbian affairs with famous Broadway and Hollywood personalities and numerous friendships with prominent artists of the period.

She was born in New York City in 1893. Her father, Ricardo de Acosta, was Cuban and of Spanish descent while her mother, Micaela Hernandez de Alba y de Alba, was Spanish and reportedly a descendant of the Spanish Dukes of Alba. De Acosta had several siblings: Aida, Ricardo Jr., Angela, Maria, and Rita. Maria married socially prominent A. Robeson Sargent, the Harvard-educated landscape architect and son of Charles Sprague Sargent.[3][4] Rita would become a famous beauty best known as Rita Lydig. She was photographed by Adolf de Meyer, Edward Steichen, and Gertrude Käsebier, sculpted in alabaster by Malvina Hoffman, and painted by Giovanni Boldini and John Singer Sargent, among others.[5][6] She also wrote one novel, Tragic Mansions (Boni & Liveright, 1927), under the name Mrs Philip Lydig, a society melodrama described as "emotionally moving and appealing" by The New York Times. De Acosta attended elementary school at the Covenant of the Blessed Sacrement on West 79th Street in Manhattan where Dorothy Parker was a classmate.
De Acosta married painter Abram Poole (January 1883 Chicago, Illinois – May 24, 1961) in 1920. They divorced in 1935.


De Acosta was involved in numerous lesbian relationships with Broadway’s and Hollywood's elite and did not attempt to hide her sexuality, which was rare in her generation.[2] In 1916 she began an affair with actress Alla Nazimova and later with dancer Isadora Duncan. Shortly after marrying Abram Poole in 1920, de Acosta became involved in a five-year relationship with actress Eva Le Gallienne.[7] The two women vacationed and traveled together often. De Acosta wrote two plays for Le Gallienne, Sandro Botticelli and Jehanne de Arc. After the financial failures of both plays they ended their relationship.
Over the next decade she had romances with several famous actresses and dancers including Greta Garbo, Marlene Dietrich, Ona Munson, and Russian ballerina Tamara Platonovna Karsavina.[8] Additional unsubstantiated rumors include Pola Negri, Eleonora Duse, Katherine Cornell, and Alice B. Toklas.[8]"


Syon

Anonymous said...

DaveinHackensack:"Were there are lot of native Hawaiians in WASP country clubs? One challenge with focusing on exceptional individuals, as Steve is in this series, is that the way they were treated may not be fully representative of the way other members of their ethnic group were treated."

In this case, I would argue that exceptional individuals are representative. After all, the typical WASP is not a member of an elite country club either. What defines genuine bigotry is the exclusion of a given group's elite, not its rank and file. the hoi polloi are always left out.

Syon

Whiskey said...

I cannot say enough in my admiration for this series Steve. What you've pointed out, and no one else has, is that America that was 89% White, 10% Black, and 1% EVERYTHING ELSE could easily and in fact, enthusiastically adopt many non-Whites as celebrities, admired athletes and entertainers, politicians, and so on.

A White majority absolutely certain it will not be challenged and abused, will have a lot more enthusiasm for "Diversity" than say, a semi-Alawite minority in today's America.

America's segregationist treatment of Blacks was dehumanizing (for everyone) but we should not confuse it with how others were treated. Geronimo, a self-confessed killer of many White men, women, and children including infants was a great figure of admiration (particularly with officer's wives) during his incarceration at Fort Myers Florida.

Whiskey said...

And yes, lets not forget Toshiro Mifune. Clint Eastwood basically stole his Yojimbo persona for his career.

Kylie said...

"Truth didn't quote you out of context[sic] all; he just shorted[sic] "reasons why" to "reason". So why not answer the question, since you brought the subject up?"

That is quoting me out of context. There was no need for him to shorten my comment--not if he was asking an honest question. But he wasn't. As always, he was pursuing an agenda.

I reply to those with an agenda if and when I choose, I feel no obligation to do so.

where's the beef? said...

Okay, all these examples prove a point but let's not confuse the trees for the forest. Two swallows don't make a summer.
In the past, it was a fact that non-whites, some more than others, faced extensive discrimination in a white-dominated society.
This isn't to say white Americans were worse than other peoples who also discriminated against other groups--and do so to this day all over the world.
And white Americans should be credited with creating a system that eventually allowed people of all backgrounds to be judged on their merit than race or color or whatever.
But the fact that non-whites were disadvantaged in Past America is a fact. Some people, especially Jews and blacks, milk it for all it's worth to feed on 'white guilt' for all eternity.

It's about time for white people to reject the whole 'white guilt' thing. Paradoxically, 'white guilt' works so effectively because there's nothing quite like White Conscience. No other people have cared so much about their historical wrongs and setting things right; to be sure, this has had a lot to do with American economic success. Success paves the way for generosity. As things change for white Americans, they may become less generous. (White Conscience is also shaped by white/Jewish elites. Though Americans like to see themselves as good and decent, most of them have to be told what is good and what is evil. They came around to thinking South African apartheid is evil because they were told that it was by the media. But most Americans don't care about the oppression of Palestinians at the hands of Zionists because they haven't been told that it's evil by the media. That 'gay marriage' suddenly became THE defining civil rights issue in America tells us how malleable American morality and 'decency' really is. Most people don't have individual conscience but mass conscience manipulated by the institutions of power. Mass conscience is predicated on the science of con.)

An economically troubled American will become less generous, and white people might start waking up. But the problem is the white elites have it better than ever. The upper classes and 'creative classes' are living on the hog. So, while middle white America is being squeezed, white elites are feeling more generous than ever because they got it all. And their idea of generosity is not helping middle class, working class, or poor whites but helping non-whites against 'evil racist whites'.

The masses are led by the elites. If the white elites will not lead teh white masses, the latter, no matter how dispossessed they become, will do nothing since the masses are incapable of doing anything on their own.
Notice even the Civil Rights Movement wasn't led by the black masses but by Jewish, white liberal, and black elites. Black masses just followed along.

Craig said...

"...It is YOU who are being unfair to Americans of southern European descent by claiming they never suffered ANY discrimination from the Anglo majority. This is blatantly false."

It sure is, because he never said it. All he claimed was that blacks were treated differently from other minorities. That is considerably different from claiming that S. Euros never were discriminated against.

But since we are talking about discrimination, lets make clear that the "discrimination" of the past has been distorted through the lens of left-wing victim PC ideology to the point where it is quite far from the reality of what happened.

Anonymous said...

Another pertinent example of diversity before diversity, at least in terms of marriage patterns and high-profile miscegenation, was dancer and actress Debra Paget's marriage to Louis C. Kung in the 1950's - once of Chinese-American nephews of Madame Chiang Kai-shek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debra_Paget


She was quite the stunner in her time, prior to her rabid Christian phase:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkVzQ1dJ7I8

Pincher Martin said...

DaveinHackensack asks, ""Were there are lot of native Hawaiians in WASP country clubs?"

There weren't a lot of WASPs in WASP country clubs, either, so I'm not sure what standard you think this sets.

Country clubs are exclusive by their nature, and they once catered to their own social and ethnic set. Jews, for example, had their own country clubs, where non-Jews were not allowed to join. Not even Hawaiians.

But the status gained by the exclusivity of country clubs is, and always was, pretty trivial. They are a social marker, not a gateway to riches.

Hawaiians and many native Americans today have their own rights and privileges which non-Hawaiians and non-Native Americans are not allowed to partake.

If you're white man, what would you rather have today? Your own country clubs again? Or your own revenue-enhancing casino?

I'll take the casino, thank you very much.

Frank N. said...

Truth is being a bit dishonest, because shortening it to a single 'reason' begs the circular answer," because they were black", whereas saying 'reasons why' suggests a more rationed discussion of concepts like black misbehavior, violence, poor school performance, work behaviors, etc.

Anonymous said...

"One of the points I'm trying to make with this Diversity Before "Diversity series is that when thinking about the past, we shouldn't project how African-Americans were treated to other minorities. It's not accurate, and it's not fair to blacks."

We also should recognize that blacks weren’t really treated anywhere near as bad as the pseudo-historical narrative likes to pretend.


Exactly. That deserves emphasis. The anti-White narrative is so infirm and politically motivated in most other respects, why should we believe how it smears whites in regards to blacks?

Most plausibly, the prevailing relationship between blacks and whites, although they belonged to separate communities, was characterized by respect, affability, and mutual benefit.

Anonymous said...

So what, even Jesse Owens cheered in Nazi Germany. Since every example you gave can be compared to this and everyone knows the travails of the scots-irish after that, all these examples are pointless.

The "travails of the scots-irish" were a consequence of tribal warfare, not some evil racism allegedly inherent in Northern Europeans.

Anonymous said...

It's amusing to me to see how much Whites fawn over the exotics--then and now!

So much for the old canard of White Racism. It turns out that Whites are some of the most tolerant and inviting people on earth.

Anonymous said...

Yes Steve, continue with your "diversity before diversity" series. NOTHING can change the fact that Anglo-American politicians in the first half of the 20th century, with a great deal of support of America's mostly northern European population-descended population at that time, tried to pass legislation barring excessive immigration from southern Europe, on the grounds that southern Europeans were biologically inferior and that, if allowed to enter the U.S in large numbers, would eventually destroy the U.S.

It wasn't on the grounds they were seen as "biologically inferior." It was self-defense against the racism/tribalism/ethnocentrism of southern Europeans. Moreover, the United States is a Northern European state, and reasonable immigration safeguards are needed to preserve its character.

Anonymous said...

It is YOU who are being unfair to Americans of southern European descent by claiming they never suffered ANY discrimination from the Anglo majority. This is blatantly false. I would love to see if a Scicilian immigrant back in 1920 who made it big and became rich would be admitted into a WASP country club.

To the extent Anglos "discriminated" against southern Europeans, it was because southern Europeans discriminated against everyone else. Italians and Jews are notoriously racist. How many Anglos were invited to join southern European establishments, business, the mafia. Were Anglos welcome at southern European churches? At synagogues, Jewish country clubs, the ADL, the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Socity, the AJC?

Anonymous said...

they had emptied the pool completely in order to remove the contamination that his Negroness had brought to the water.

Not "Negroness" per se. There were justifiable concerns about higher incidence of disease among blacks. A lot of that has changed with the inroads of modern medicine (as, strangely enough, have the laws) although the incidence of venereal disease among blacks continues to be over 50%.

Anonymous said...

As you point out, this is unfair to African-Americans, who really were treated with unique barbarity.

"Barbarity"? Really?? Isn't that a wee bit strong.

And a "unique barbarity" to boot. As if other residents of the United States were also treated with barbarity, just a more general one.

Anonymous said...

That said, Steve's main point is correct: blacks were treated differently and worse -- even exceptional ones. Stars such as Ella Fitzgerald were made to take the freight elevators.

But how bad was that really, in the big scheme of her very successful life? She was able to be wildly successful in this country anyway. So how bad must it have been?

Anonymous said...

Jews, for example, had their own country clubs, where non-Jews were not allowed to join. Not even Hawaiians.

And Jews to this day continue to have their own country clubs. Tour some of the clubs in the Northeast, if they will let you in.

DaveinHackensack said...

Syon,

Good point.

Kylie,

Here, I'll quote you exactly:

"In the past, African-Americans were treated quite differently from other minorities. We need to be clear about that, just as we need to be clear about the reasons why."

I have no agenda other than curiosity. Now, will you deign to explicate the reasons you mentioned above?

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous 4:32 PM

"Anonymous leftist:"You obviosuly have a political agenda. Steve. You want to classify as many people as white just to get them off affirmative action and leave it just for blacks. I want affirmative action to end for all, but this is besides the point. It is YOU who are being unfair to Americans of southern European descent by claiming they never suffered ANY discrimination from the Anglo majority. This is blatantly false. I would love to see if a Scicilian immigrant back in 1920 who made it big and became rich would be admitted into a WASP country club. We both know the answer to this one."


DEar boy, it is simply too easy to pull up a list of successful, socially prominent Americans of Southern Euro descent in the pre-1945 period:

John Dos Passos

María Consuelo Iznaga y Clemens (its pretty hard to beat her in the socially elite sweepstakes. Just look her up in WIKIPEDIA)

Ernest Fenollosa

George Santayana

David Farragut

And there is the very high toned de Acosta family:

Rita de Acosta Lydig

Mercedes de Acosta

Aida de Acosta

Syon"

I love how you guys keep calling me a "leftist" or a "liberal". You love these two words: leftist and liveral. You use them a lot. Everyone who disagrees with your retarded ramblings is a "leftist" or a "liberal".

For the last time, I am a libertarian. One of the big things about libertarianism is judging people as individuals and not due to their ethnicity or nationality. Hence, I don't need to be a "liberal" or "leftist" to object to people being cruelly judged by the color of their skin or what nation they were born. But you guys cannot figure this out because you are not the sharpest pencils in the box. I guess you guys assume that the words liberal and libertarian are synonyms because they sound alike. Here is a hint for you: they are not.

And what has your list accomplished? I never claimed that southern European were barred from achieving fame and fortune in America; I said that, everything else being equal, American Society gave a more exalted status to those of northern European descent and especially to those of descent from the British Islands. It was much easier for an English immigrant back in 1920 to gain American citizenship than for a Sicilian immigrant, and the upper circles of power, such as the Senate, the Presidency and such, were more or less closed to Sicilian immigrants and only open to Anglos. Not only that, but the upper echelons of social life, such as the best private clubs, debutante balls and residential addresses were very, very difficult to get into for an American of Sicilian origin or descent back in 1920. This is NOT debeatable.

You mention a socialite who married a BRITISH(Anglo) noble. She also had ARISTOCRATIC blood. For all practical purposes, she was not a hispanic woman in the eyes of American Society. The aristocracy are above even the upper burgeoise in the pecking order of "chic", and she married a man with nobleman from Britain. I guess if you have a title of nobility and marry a British aristocrat, you receive a special exemption. Now let's compare to how a Sicilian immigrant who made it big in America but did not marry a British aristocrat would be treated. Could he run for President and get elected in 1920 being of Sicilian origin? NO. Could he get into WASP country clubs? NO. Would the Cabots and the Lodges get into business deals with him? NO. You guys really need to cut the crap and admit that this pan-European brotherhood that was America before and where only blacks got dicriminated never existed. Some whites were more whites than others before the 1960s, and this is a fact.

Truth said...

"My noting your disingenuous editing of my comment is all the response you're going to get from me."

I copied and pasted, did not drag the blue box long enough to capture the word "why"? Very well, what's the difference?

All I did was ask a question.

Anonymous said...

Pincher Martin 7/6/12 6:29 PM:
Jews, for example, had their own country clubs, where non-Jews were not allowed to join. Not even Hawaiians.

The Jewish clubs were largely established as a response to being excluded from non-Jewish clubs. Stephen Birmingham's book Our Crowd describes the earliest manifestations of this trend in the mid to late 19th century. Interestingly, a lot of Jewish country clubs in smaller locales no longer have the membership counts or financial reserves to maintain a policy of exclusion. Some have merged with formerly Gentile-only clubs, and others have closed their doors.

Truth said...

"this villain starring in bridge on the river kwai, was once one of the sexiest men in america. Sessue Hayakawa..."

Per Wikipedia:

"His popularity, sex appeal and extravagant lifestyle (such as hosting wild parties and driving a gold-plated Pierce-Arrow) caused tension within American society resulting in discriminatory stereotypes and the de-sexualizing of Asian men in cinema"

Hayakawa was in a unique position due to his ethnicity and fame in the English world. Due to anti-miscegenation laws that existed at the time, Hayakawa would be unable to become a citizen or marry someone of another race. In 1930, the Production Code came into effect which forbade portrayals of miscegenation in film. This meant that unless Hayakawa played opposite an authentic Asian actress, he would not be able to portray a romance with her.

Throughout his career, the United States dealt with yellow peril which affected Americans perceptions of Asians. This left Hayakawa to constantly be typecast as a villain or forbidden lover and unable to play parts that would be given to fellow white actors such as Douglas Fairbanks.[10]

Anonymous said...

"Bad Behavior Index

Blacks 106
Mexicans 85
American Indians 85
Italians 70
Irish 67
Jews 64
Germans 56
English/Welsh 47"


I dunno. Years ago I read an FBI study done on the religiosity (or lack therof) of White collar criminals published in the early 1980s (no longer avaiable online). As I recall. approximately 1/3 of the subjects studied out of a large sample were identified as "Scotch-Irish."

Also don't forget Bolshevism and the hundreds of millions of deaths attributed to it and its father Marxism in the Ukraine, the former Soviet Union, China, Cambodian, and other countries.

They were instrumental in these mass movements of psychosis.

Even Churchill wrote about their instrumental role in these movements in London Times in the 1920s and the horror that was being inflicted on people in the Soviet Union.

Also don't forget their role in Cultural Marxism, Freudianism, Boasism and other sham sciences which set back science and inflicted harm on Western cultures and Whites.

The Scotch-Irish thuggery is of a cerebral sort not the street violence of Blacks.

I wonder if that's why the two groups seem to work so well together sometimes.

Don't get me wrong. There are many great Scotch-Irish, just like there are many great Blacks.

But overall, historically I can't see giving them a lower score "on average" than the Irish, Italians, or American Indians.

Can you?

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous 4:32 PM

"DEar boy, it is simply too easy to pull up a list of successful, socially prominent Americans of Southern Euro descent in the pre-1945 period:

John Dos Passos

María Consuelo Iznaga y Clemens (its pretty hard to beat her in the socially elite sweepstakes. Just look her up in WIKIPEDIA)

Ernest Fenollosa

George Santayana

David Farragut

And there is the very high toned de Acosta family:

Rita de Acosta Lydig

Mercedes de Acosta

Aida de Acosta

Syon"

I love how you guys keep calling me a "leftist" or a "liberal". You love these two words: leftist and liveral. You use them a lot. Everyone who disagrees with your retarded ramblings is a "leftist" or a "liberal".

For the last time, I am a libertarian. One of the big things about libertarianism is judging people as individuals and not due to their ethnicity or nationality. Hence, I don't need to be a "liberal" or "leftist" to object to people being cruelly judged by the color of their skin or what nation they were born. But you guys cannot figure this out because you are not the sharpest pencils in the box. I guess you guys assume that the words liberal and libertarian are synonyms because they sound alike. Here is a hint for you: they are not.

And what has your list accomplished? I never claimed that southern European were barred from achieving fame and fortune in America; I said that, everything else being equal, American Society gave a more exalted status to those of northern European descent and especially to those of descent from the British Islands. It was much easier for an English immigrant back in 1920 to gain American citizenship than for a Sicilian immigrant, and the upper circles of power, such as the Senate, the Presidency and such, were more or less closed to Sicilian immigrants and only open to Anglos. Not only that, but the upper echelons of social life, such as the best private clubs, debutante balls and residential addresses were very, very difficult to get into for an American of Sicilian origin or descent back in 1920. This is NOT debeatable.

You mention a socialite who married a BRITISH(Anglo) noble. She also had ARISTOCRATIC blood. For all practical purposes, she was not a hispanic woman in the eyes of American Society. The aristocracy are above even the upper burgeoise in the pecking order of "chic", and she married a man with nobleman from Britain. I guess if you have a title of nobility and marry a British aristocrat, you receive a special exemption. Now let's compare to how a Sicilian immigrant who made it big in America but did not marry a British aristocrat would be treated. Could he run for President and get elected in 1920 being of Sicilian origin? NO. Could he get into WASP country clubs? NO. Would the Cabots and the Lodges get into business deals with him? NO. You guys really need to cut the crap and admit that this pan-European brotherhood that was America before and where only blacks got dicriminated never existed. Some whites were more whites than others before the 1960s, and this is a fact

FU Sailer said...

What would be fair to blacks, Steve? Letting them riot and rape and murder until they are satiated?

No comment on blacks July 4th mayhem across the country by you, but you never comment on their organized mayhem, do you?

Yes what a shame blacks were treated so poorly. But the trade-off was nearly zero murders, rapes and beatings of whites by blacks. As opposed to the widespread black-on-white violence that occurs today.

Go to hell, Steve. You have ignored the nationwide organized Intifada that blacks have been waging against whites in this country for years and then you come out with this crap.

stari_momak said...

" NOTHING can change the fact that Anglo-American politicians in the first half of the 20th century, with a great deal of support of America's mostly northern European population-descended population at that time, tried to pass legislation barring excessive immigration from southern Europe, on the grounds that southern Europeans were biologically inferior and that, if allowed to enter the U.S in large numbers, would eventually destroy the U.S."

1) It didn't *try* to pass legislation for ethnically balanced immigration, it succeeded.

2) While no doubt there were some 'biologically oriented' restrictionist intellectuals, it seems to me the actual politicians voted on economic and non-biological ethnic lines.

3) And what of it -- why shouldn't the ethnic group that founded the country be able to determine who gets in?

4) Given 'Real Housewives of New Jersey' to 'Jersey Shore', I think it's time to recognize those old, evil WASPs had a point.

stari_momak said...

"The Jewish clubs were largely established as a response to being excluded from non-Jewish clubs."

You don't have to be K-Mac to realize that a very important strain of thought in the Jewish religion is separation. Heck, just watch Fiddler on the Roof, It seems likely that Jews would have formed their own clubs whether 'excluded' or not from WASP clubs. Here for example is a gentile-rein Jewish camp for Jewish kids advertised (right now!) on the 'JewishLA' website.

Anonymous said...

It is YOU who are being unfair to Americans of southern European descent by claiming they never suffered ANY discrimination from the Anglo majority. This is blatantly false. I would love to see if a Scicilian immigrant back in 1920 who made it big and became rich would be admitted into a WASP country club.

When I look at my family's high school yearbooks from the 1920's-1960's from our Mississippi Delta town, I see Sicilian, Greek, Chinese, Lebanese/Syrian, and Italian names, but no blacks (the majority population, then and now). Steve's point is the sheer degree of discrimination, and I submit this example as a case in point.

Anonymous said...

"There were justifiable concerns about higher incidence of disease among blacks. A lot of that has changed with the inroads of modern medicine (as, strangely enough, have the laws) although the incidence of venereal disease among blacks continues to be over 50%."

My father, who was a doctor, said that the reason for separate drinking fountains in the South was the high level of tuberculosis among blacks.

Anonymous said...

I said that, everything else being equal, American Society gave a more exalted status to those of northern European descent and especially to those of descent from the British Islands. It was much easier for an English immigrant back in 1920 to gain American citizenship than for a Sicilian immigrant, and the upper circles of power, such as the Senate, the Presidency and such, were more or less closed to Sicilian immigrants and only open to Anglos. Not only that, but the upper echelons of social life, such as the best private clubs, debutante balls and residential addresses were very, very difficult to get into for an American of Sicilian origin or descent back in 1920.

Unmitigated even by an "everything else being equal" qualifier, Israeli society gives more exalted status to those of Jewish descent and especially those of Ashkenazi descent. It is much easier for a Jewish immigrant to Israel to gain citizenship that it is for a Christian or Muslim and the upper circles of power are more or less closed to Christians and Muslims. Not only that but the upper echelons of social life are very, very hard to get into for an Israeli of Christian or Muslim descent.

Anonymous said...

You guys really need to cut the crap and admit that this pan-European brotherhood that was America before and where only blacks got dicriminated never existed.

Why do we have to accept your historical narrative? Why do you feel threatened by the idea of pan-European brotherhood?

Desmond said...

"Go to hell, Steve. You have ignored the nationwide organized Intifada that blacks have been waging against whites in this country for years and then you come out with this crap."

- That's a bit out of place, don't you think? Steve may not have been writing about these riots but scroll through the archives and you'll find plenty about Katrina, prison violence, etc. His larger focus seems to be to point out the flaws in the ideology and laws that have helped create and subsequently excuse the riots you bring up.

Anonymous said...

The Scotch-Irish thuggery is of a cerebral sort not the street violence of Blacks.

I think you mean of the instigator or intellectual author sort. It still results in street or state violence.

For a recent example, note the media's fanning of racial hatred toward whites among blacks in some July 4th stories.

Anonymous said...

The Jewish clubs were largely established as a response to being excluded from non-Jewish clubs.

I think you have it backwards. Jews have been discriminating against Gentiles for 3000 years. "Non-Jewish" clubs were established as a response to Jewish ethnocentrism.

Stephen Birmingham's book Our Crowd describes the earliest manifestations of this trend in the mid to late 19th century.

Hmm, this "manifestation" happens to coincide with the large-scale arrival of Ashkenazi, particularly Eastern European, Jews to the United States.

Interestingly, a lot of Jewish country clubs in smaller locales no longer have the membership counts or financial reserves to maintain a policy of exclusion.

All you are saying is that Jews will discriminate when they are able to. That's not "interesting"; it's mundane.

Anonymous said...

O/T but can somebody speak to the suggestion in this AP story that Israel gives higher salaries for its mandatory military service (2-3 years) to Jews who marry and have children:

"And as those who are married and with children are entitled to higher salaries — the military would face another financial burden."

Does the U.S. government offer this kind of incentive to procreate? Do U.S. servicepersons with children receive higher salaries? Does Israel give higher salaries to Jewish and Arab Israelis alike or only Jewish Israelis?

This quote by an Israeli is also interesting:

"You have to understand, we are part of the Jewish army," said Aharon Grossman, a 30-year-old student at Mir Yeshiva. "Some people serve in tanks. We serve in yeshiva."

Stirrup said...

"Truth said...

"this villain starring in bridge on the river kwai, was once one of the sexiest men in america. Sessue Hayakawa..."

Per Wikipedia:
"His popularity, sex appeal and extravagant lifestyle (such as hosting wild parties and driving a gold-plated Pierce-Arrow) caused tension within American society resulting in discriminatory stereotypes and the de-sexualizing of Asian men in cinema" "


- Why not, wikipedia has been proven time and again to never list any incorrect information nor has its articles ever had any political leanings. Its not as though just anyone could write a piece for it....

Anonymous said...

stari_momak 7/7/12 12:48 AM:
You don't have to be K-Mac to realize that a very important strain of thought in the Jewish religion is separation.

A rather large number of Jews in the U.S. are either non-religious or minimally so (synagogue twice a year, don't keep kosher, etc.). No doubt, some of the more committed Jews would want to be in their own clubs, but others wouldn't find that appealing at all.

I doubt that the L.A. Jewish camps make a policy of being Gentile-free, although camps focused on Jewish religion or culture probably wouldn't appeal to Gentiles any more than Baptist-run "vacation Bible schools" would appeal to Jews. That said, Jewish camps appeal to Jewish parents who care strongly about indoctrinating their progeny and have less appeal to those who don't.

Anonymous said...

"Clint Eastwood basically stole his Yojimbo persona for his career."

No, Mifune was hot and intense. Wolfish.

Eastwood has been dry and steely.

Anonymous said...

@stari-momak

"" NOTHING can change the fact that Anglo-American politicians in the first half of the 20th century, with a great deal of support of America's mostly northern European population-descended population at that time, tried to pass legislation barring excessive immigration from southern Europe, on the grounds that southern Europeans were biologically inferior and that, if allowed to enter the U.S in large numbers, would eventually destroy the U.S."

1) It didn't *try* to pass legislation for ethnically balanced immigration, it succeeded.

2) While no doubt there were some 'biologically oriented' restrictionist intellectuals, it seems to me the actual politicians voted on economic and non-biological ethnic lines.

3) And what of it -- why shouldn't the ethnic group that founded the country be able to determine who gets in?

4) Given 'Real Housewives of New Jersey' to 'Jersey Shore', I think it's time to recognize those old, evil WASPs had a point."

So basically, you admit that America discriminated against southern Europeans. At least you are honest.

Anonymous said...

"One of the big things about libertarianism is judging people as individuals and not due to their ethnicity or nationality. "

And what might this mystical individuality be?

"I guess you guys assume that the words liberal and libertarian are synonyms because they sound alike. Here is a hint for you: they are not."

LOL that certainly explains the use of niggardly here. Bunch of racist louts!

"It was much easier for an English immigrant back in 1920 to gain American citizenship than for a Sicilian immigrant"

Even though both had cheerful, outgoing personality, two legs, one nose, and oh, you get the gist.
Whom am I kidding? English with cheerful outgoing personalities, what a joke!

Anonymous said...

Yes, Black stars had to take the freight elevator, but they were getting paid thousands of dollars per show when white kids were working for sixty cents an hour and white (or black) auto workers made eight or nine grand a year. Other black musicians, often more talented, resigned themselves to poverty and played for other black audiences for any number of reasons.

Then as now, blacks spent far more of their income (percentagewise) on entertainment and despite the disparity in income, black oriented records and live performance opportunities were a good chunk of the total business, and all open only to blacks. Mainstream pop music and TV/radio appearances were willing to hire some blacks , but they had to be white-acceptable and their numbers were limited. Plus which, blacks would often quit following black performers seen as "Toming", which simply often meant acting like a human being.

Many black entertainers and musicians deliberately kept away from mainstream success, therefore, figuring if the stayed black the blacks would always offer some income and support, whereas once they had 'went white', if the mainstream world dropped them they would never be re-accepted.

This was also true of country-and-western musicians who were offered mainstream opportunities, although not to the same extent. One could be a country music stalwart and a Hollywood star besides.

Anonymous said...

"This left Hayakawa to constantly be typecast as a villain or forbidden lover and unable to play parts that would be given to fellow white actors such as Douglas Fairbanks."

also from wikipedia:

His brooding good looks and typecasting as a sinister villain with sexual dominance made him a heartthrob among American women

Roissy likes.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous leftist (yes, dear boy, libertarians are leftists-perhaps even the ultimate expression of leftist ideology):"Now let's compare to how a Sicilian immigrant who made it big in America but did not marry a British aristocrat would be treated. Could he run for President and get elected in 1920 being of Sicilian origin?"

Well, since immigrants are barred from the presidency, no.One must be born a citizen to become president. Of course, the same would apply to an immigrant from England as well.


By the by, you really seem to be hitting this Sicilian theme pretty hard. Is it a subject of personal interest?

Syon

Anonymous said...

I think you have it backwards. Jews have been discriminating against Gentiles for 3000 years. "Non-Jewish" clubs were established as a response to Jewish ethnocentrism.

A typical WN whine. It is laughable to think that three centuries ago, the ancestors of the current Ashkenazim were discriminating against Gentiles from their poor shtetls. As for the clubs in New York, the non-exclusively Jewish clubs were founded before the Jewish clubs. That is also true of many U.S. country clubs as well. The policies of exclusion at the Jewish clubs were a mirror-image of the policies directed against their Jewish members.

Anonymous said...

A typical WN whine. It is laughable to think that three centuries ago, the ancestors of the current Ashkenazim were discriminating against Gentiles from their poor shtetls.

A typical WN (Tel Aviv Chapter) whine. The residents of "shtetls" (Yiddish for gated communities) were tax collectors, tax farmers, middlemen, dramkeepers, liquor distributors, and the bankers of their time. It's pretty obvious which direction the exploitation ran.

Anonymous said...

As for the clubs in New York, the non-exclusively Jewish clubs were founded before the Jewish clubs. That is also true of many U.S. country clubs as well. The policies of exclusion at the Jewish clubs were a mirror-image of the policies directed against their Jewish members.

So Jews do discriminate against Christians and Muslims with clubs. Moreover, Judaism, which is characterized by exclusion, was founded 3000 years before non-exclusively Jewish clubs in New York. The Gentiles were just taking a page from the Talmud.

Anonymous said...

So basically, you admit that America discriminated against southern Europeans. At least you are honest.

It was southern Europeans that discriminated against Americans. Name one Anglo that became a made man. And Italy continues to discriminate against Americans, denying them the opportunity to do jobs in Italy that Italians won't do.

Anonymous said...

I doubt that the L.A. Jewish camps make a policy of being Gentile-free, although camps focused on Jewish religion or culture probably wouldn't appeal to Gentiles any more than Baptist-run "vacation Bible schools" would appeal to Jews.

Are Gentiles welcome at Jewish camps, at Jewish day schools, on JDate?

Anonymous said...

So basically, you admit that America discriminated against southern Europeans.

Why does it matter whether someone says they discriminated or didn't discriminate?

Pincher Martin said...

Anonymous at 7/6/12 7:44 PM writes,

"Barbarity"? Really?? Isn't that a wee bit strong.

No, I think the enslavement of a people for nearly a century in a country dedicated to freedom easily qualifies as barbaric. I also think the subsequent treatment of blacks after their liberation was far worse than anything other non-WASP groups had to put up with.

I'm not sure how any thinking person with a firm grasp of U.S. history could believe otherwise.

And a "unique barbarity" to boot. As if other residents of the United States were also treated with barbarity, just a more general one.

That's your own spin on my comment.

The enslavement of African-Americans was a unique and barbaric situation in this country. We treated no other group in the barbaric way we treated blacks. Not Native Americans. Not Mexicans. Not Hawaiians. Not Jews. Not Sicilians. Not anyone.

Does that mean I think white Americans today owe blacks something? No. But in the wider policy debate, it's still useful to remind the general public that blacks were really treated quite differently from, and far worse than, other non-WASP groups who are now seeking favorable treatment from the U.S. government because -- among other reasons -- their granddaddies were not allowed to join Augusta County Club.

Anonymous said...

No, I think the enslavement of a people for nearly a century in a country dedicated to freedom easily qualifies as barbaric. I also think the subsequent treatment of blacks after their liberation was far worse than anything other non-WASP groups had to put up with.

But we weren't talking about slavery. We are talking about the conditions of blacks since. Are you saying the general treatment and condition of blacks in the United States since slavery has been barbaric?

Regarding slavery, which is more "barbaric," holding someone in a condition of indentured servitude or killing someone? Obama commits murder against defenseless people on nearly a daily basis. How is that not more barbaric than slavery?

Pincher Martin said...

Anonymous at 7/6/12 9:21 PM writes,

"The Jewish clubs were largely established as a response to being excluded from non-Jewish clubs. Stephen Birmingham's book Our Crowd describes the earliest manifestations of this trend in the mid to late 19th century.

So the goys made the Jews set up their own exclusive clubs, did they?

Apparently, the slavish imitation of WASP social institutions is to blame for why Jewish country clubs were no more likely to let in Hawaiians, Mexicans, Native Americans and Blacks than were WASP country clubs.

As several other commentators have already pointed out, that explanation just won't fly.

"Interestingly, a lot of Jewish country clubs in smaller locales no longer have the membership counts or financial reserves to maintain a policy of exclusion. Some have merged with formerly Gentile-only clubs, and others have closed their doors."

The same could be said of many WASP country clubs.

Snobbish ethnic exclusivity just doesn't have the cachet it once did. Combine that with unfavorable economics for many country clubs (as the number of public courses has increased and the market for golf has widened), and that's probably sufficient to explain why some of the smaller Jewish clubs loosened their membership requirements.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous leftist;"Not only that, but the upper echelons of social life, such as the best private clubs, debutante balls and residential addresses were very, very difficult to get into for an American of Sicilian origin or descent back in 1920. This is NOT debeatable."

Just to be clear, you have retreated from all non-Anglos to just Sicilians now,right? How sad. I was all set to tell you the saga of the Belmont family (check WIKIPEDIA). Evidently, once they converted to the Episcopal faith, they had no trouble becoming pillars of the 19th-early 20th century American Establishment (yes, they belonged to the right clubs, went to the right schools, etc).Nobody seemed to really mind their Ashkenazi blood.

Syon

Truth said...

Syon, I'm not sure what you do for a living, but let me assure you; in many fields, business deals are disproportionately consummated over rounds of golf and hands of poker.

Anonymous said...

@Truth

in many fields, business deals are disproportionately consummated over rounds of golf and hands of poker.

What is the source of your information on this?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous: Cab Calloway was the #1 leading musical act in the '30s but he still couldn't sleep in Southern hotels. His band had its own train with sleeping cars.

DaveinHackensack: Stars such as Ella Fitzgerald were made to take the freight elevators.

Kylie: In the past, African-Americans were treated quite differently from other minorities. We need to be clear about that, just as we need to be clear about the reasons why.


Reporter's Notebook: Seeing How The Other Half Lives
October 7, 2008 3:24 PM
By Dean Reynolds
cbsnews.com

After most of the previous 12 months covering Barack Obama's campaign for the presidency, it was interesting, instructive and, well, relaxing to follow John McCain for the last few days. The differences between the two are striking...

Behind the scenes, where the public is not allowed, there are other differences.

Obama's campaign schedule is fuller, more hectic and seemingly improvisational. The Obama aides who deal with the national reporters on the campaign plane are often overwhelmed, overworked and un-informed about where, when, why or how the candidate is moving about. Baggage calls are preposterously early with the explanation that it's all for security reasons.

If so, I would love to have someone from Obama's campaign explain why the entire press corps, the Secret Service, and the local police idled for two hours in a Miami hotel parking lot recently because there was nothing to do and nowhere to go. It was not an isolated case.

The national headquarters in Chicago airily dismisses complaints from journalists wondering why a schedule cannot be printed up or at least e-mailed in time to make coverage plans. Nor is there much sympathy for those of us who report for a newscast that airs in the early evening hours. Our shows place a premium on live reporting from the scene of campaign events. But this campaign can often be found in the air and flying around at the time the "CBS Evening News with Katie Couric" is broadcast. I suspect there is a feeling within the Obama campaign that the broadcast networks are less influential in the age of the internet and thus needn't be accomodated as in the days of yore. Even if it's true, they are only hurting themselves by dissing audiences that run in the tens of millions every night.

The McCain folks are more helpful and generally friendly. The schedules are printed on actual books you can hold in your hand, read, and then plan accordingly. The press aides are more knowledgeable and useful to us in the news media. The events are designed with a better eye, and for the simple needs of the press corps. When he is available, John McCain is friendly and loquacious. Obama holds news conferences, but seldom banters with the reporters who've been following him for thousands of miles around the country. Go figure.

The McCain campaign plane is better than Obama's, which is cramped, uncomfortable and smells terrible most of the time. Somehow the McCain folks manage to keep their charter clean, even where the press is seated...

Anonymous said...

Truth:"Syon, I'm not sure what you do for a living, but let me assure you; in many fields, business deals are disproportionately consummated over rounds of golf and hands of poker."

I'm not sure why this is directed at me.Did I suggest that business deals are not conducted at country clubs?

Syon

Pincher Martin said...

Anonymous at 7/7/12 4:40 PM writes,

"But we weren't talking about slavery. We are talking about the conditions of blacks since.

Sez who?

My original comment was directed toward Steve's post, where he writes, "One of the points I'm trying to make with this Diversity Before Diversity series is that when thinking about the past, we shouldn't project how African-Americans were treated to other minorities. It's not accurate, and it's not fair to blacks." [My emphasis in bold.]

Do you see anything there about Steve limiting himself to the Jim Crow era, instead of the American past in general, which would of course include slavery?

"Are you saying the general treatment and condition of blacks in the United States since slavery has been barbaric?"

It depends on the standard we use, but the treatment of blacks in the Jim Crow Era is not a bright spot in American history and it was qualitatively worse than anything Americans did to other non-WASPs at the time.

But, hey, compared to slavery before the Civil War, or being a slave in Brazil or Central America, or being a slave in the Muslims world, I'm sure it was several steps up from barbarity.

In any case, my description included slavery.

Pincher Martin said...

Truth,

"Syon, I'm not sure what you do for a living, but let me assure you; in many fields, business deals are disproportionately consummated over rounds of golf and hands of poker."

That's complete horseshit.

Do they "disproportionately" light up big fat stogies, too? (What does disproportionate even mean in this context?)

You sound like some college student who's watched too many Oliver Stone movies about Wall Street.

People golf because they like to golf. Wealthy people join country clubs because they like the social cachet and the exclusivity, and they often like to golf or want to learn.

Your implication that important business is routinely done on golf courses and in poker rooms, and that therefore the exclusivity represents a loss of opportunity for those who can't join, is ludicrous.

Anonymous said...

"Are Gentiles welcome at Jewish camps, at Jewish day schools, on JDate?"

JDate is owned by Spark Networks, the same company that owns Match.com. I've read that non-Jews can join and post profiles. The response would be hostile from committed religious types, but I'm not sure how less observant Jews on the site would respond. Reform synagogue-sponsored pre-schools and some Reform-sponsored day schools (of which there aren't many, since most Reform Jewish kids attend public schools or non-denominational private schools) allow Gentiles. I have no experience with the stricter denominations in this regard.

Anonymous said...

"The residents of "shtetls"...were tax collectors, tax farmers, middlemen, dramkeepers, liquor distributors, and the bankers of their time"

Many others were teachers, tailors, porters, rag merchants, and itinerant peddlers, often in second-hand goods. In the 19th century, many Jewish residents of shtetls in the Russian Pale of Settlement were destitute.

Anonymous said...

I'm not a golfer, but I smoke cigars, and the golf set is predominant at the cigar lounges I hang out in. I think being kept out of the tonier clubs is if anything a business advantage, even though sometimes business is done there. Those deals are often the ones that go bad.

ben tillman said...

Flutter kick is for Aussie Craw or Freestyle since its easier for a long axle stroke like Freestyle or Backstroke than sidestroke kick would be.

"Crawl", not "craw", and "freestyle" isn't a stroke. A "freestyle" race allows you to use any stroke, which would be the crawl for most swimmers.

Truth said...

"What is the source of your information on this?"

Having played golf and poker...and having attended business meetings.

"There are more business deals and partnerships that happen on the golf course than anywhere else in the world..."

http://voices.yahoo.com/conducting-business-golf-course-2414765.html?cat=3

"Source: A major international hotel chain conducted an attitudinal study of global executives and their views on the sport of golf. 401 CEO’s of top-level global companies were interviewed. Here are the results:

• 93% said, “Playing golf with a business associate is a good way to establish a closer relationship”.

• 80% agreed, “Playing golf is a good way to make new business contacts”.

• Over 1/3 said, “Some of my biggest business deals were made on the golf course”.

• Of the 60 percent of women who play golf with business clients, more than a third said that, “Playing golf resulted in additional business for them”"

http://www.thebusinessgolfconcierge.com/

"Starwood Hotels Study Finds 43% of Execs Say Some of Their Biggest
Deals Have Been Done on the Golf Course;"

http://hotel-online.com/News/PR2002_2nd/Jun02_HOTGolf.html

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 6:12 AM

"Unmitigated even by an "everything else being equal" qualifier, Israeli society gives more exalted status to those of Jewish descent and especially those of Ashkenazi descent. It is much easier for a Jewish immigrant to Israel to gain citizenship that it is for a Christian or Muslim and the upper circles of power are more or less closed to Christians and Muslims. Not only that but the upper echelons of social life are very, very hard to get into for an Israeli of Christian or Muslim descent."

What the hell has my point got to do with Jews in any way, shape or form? I am arguing whether Jews in Israel practice discrimination against non-Jews or not; my point is all about the discrimination of Anglo-Americans against southern European immigrants in the first half of the 20th Century. So you agree with me, since you bring up Israel discriminating against non-Jews trying to give moral validity to this kind of dicrimination as a rebuttal to my points about white Amrica discriminating against southern Europeans in the first half of the 20th Century? Good.

Anonymous said...

"The residents of "shtetls"...were tax collectors, tax farmers, middlemen, dramkeepers, liquor distributors, and the bankers of their time"

Many others were teachers, tailors, porters, rag merchants, and itinerant peddlers, often in second-hand goods. In the 19th century, many Jewish residents of shtetls in the Russian Pale of Settlement were destitute.


Squid ink. Nothing you write here addresses the fact that Jews exploited Christians in Eastern Europe and that Judaism discriminates against Christians.

And my gosh if Jewish teachers, tailors, and apparel merchants were poor, imagine how bad off the Christian masses, the peasants and indentured servants, were.

Next we can talk about how Jews enslaved Christians and used them in a transcontinental slave trade. See the Radhanites, as well as an explanation of the similarity between the words "Slav" and "slave."

Anonymous said...

So you agree with me, since you bring up Israel discriminating against non-Jews trying to give moral validity to this kind of dicrimination as a rebuttal to my points about white Amrica discriminating against southern Europeans in the first half of the 20th Century? Good.

If you were really concerned about discrimination, you would spend more time highlighting ongoing discrimination, particularly that practiced by or furthered with the help of the United States. Israel would be a good place to start.

Why is it so important to you that a story alleges that Americans "discriminated against" "southern Europeans"?

Anonymous said...

my point is all about the discrimination of Anglo-Americans against southern European immigrants in the first half of the 20th Century.

It makes little sense to single out Anglo-Americans when everyone else discriminates. Even less sense, when any Anglo-American "discrimination" was merely self defense against other group's tribalism and corruption and resistance to assimilation.

Italians, in fact, are generally understood to be more racist than Anglo-Americans. And to this day, Italian law discriminates against White Americans.

Singling out Anglos is itself a form of discrimination.

Pincher Martin said...

Truth,

"Having played golf and poker...and having attended business meetings."

Wow. That's a very impressive resume. You are now in the very select group of perhaps one-third of all white men in America who have also attended a business meeting, played some golf, and sat through at least a dozen orbits of Texas Hold 'em. I can see why you're so confident in your insight.

I am a co-owner of four golf courses, including three public courses and one country club. I was part of the original investment group which developed the courses. The managing partner -- a very successful commercial developer -- didn't even know how to play golf when he began the project twenty years ago. Nor did anyone else in his office. He learned to play as he was building the first course. The inability to play golf not only didn't prevent him from becoming a successful commercial developer, it didn't even prevent him from becoming a successful developer of golf courses. He still doesn't play well, even though he has been described in the press as a "golf course magnate". He cheats on the course, too.

I'm also impressed by your sources. When a hotel chain (which owns golf courses) and the business golf concierge tell you that playing golf is important to closing business deals, that's the kind of information you can take to the bank. Those objective sources know the difference between a correlation and a cause. I, too, would encourage prospective members of our country club to think of the $40,000 non-equity membership and high monthly fees as an investment in those future business deals they would otherwise miss out on.

Much of your response is beside the point. We were not talking about playing golf today, but about playing golf in a previous era when country clubs preferred restricting membership to their own ethnicity. This obviously kept Jews from succeeding. After all, how could they succeed in business when the WASP country clubs wouldn't allow them in?

Steve Sailer said...

Much of the point of country clubs is to provide a peer group for the next generation potentially to marry within, so they tend to be among the most restrictive institutions by ethnicity and class.

Pincher Martin said...

Steve,

That may be the point of the more venerable and established country clubs -- although I doubt it -- but it's just business today for the owners of most clubs and just a status symbol and a means of recreation for its members.

Anonymous said...

Much of the point of country clubs is to provide a peer group for the next generation potentially to marry within, so they tend to be among the most restrictive institutions by ethnicity and class.

Steve,

What evidence have you seen that this is the motivation?

Truth said...

"I can see why you're so confident in your insight.

I am a co-owner of four golf courses, including three public courses and one country club. I was part of the original investment group which developed the courses."

Oh. I'm sorry Sport, I didn't explain myself properly; I was referring to the type of golf courses that don't feature 7'ft plaster gorillas.

Pincher Martin said...

Yeah, well don't worry, Truth. We're not exclusive. For a quite reasonable price, you too can be putting at windmills while you set up your next major business deal.

We'll even throw in a free poker table to get you two-thirds of the way there. Think of it as your way to finally hit the big time without paying those Augusta or Cypress Point membership fees.

Truth said...

Hey putting at windmills! I'm going to give you credit for a great pun here (although my gut tells me it's a coincidence).

Anonymous said...

I love how some people are upset that Steve dares suggests society didn't give blacks meritocratic treatment.

The leftist narrative is wrong, so the complete opposite must be right? ...Right?

ben tillman said...

my point is all about the discrimination of Anglo-Americans against southern European immigrants in the first half of the 20th Century.

And suppose we accept your "point". Then what? Are you suggesting that you think there's something wrong with discrimination?

Singling out Anglos is itself a form of discrimination.

Indeed.

Anonymous said...

Pretty blond swimmer Natalie Couglin mother is flipino. Why the swimming world not rave about this as much as Cullen Jones being full black I don't know. It seems that there is a lot of half-asian half-whtie swimmers that don't get notice. The Kirk sisters in 2004 were half-Chinese and one woman in 1996 mother came from Vietnam and father was white.