March 21, 2012

Trayvon Martin, RIP

The fatal shooting of unarmed Trayvon Martin by a neighborhood watch volunteer in Florida named George Zimmerman is a reminder that way too many people get shot in America for screwed-up reasons or for no particular reason other than adrenaline and testosterone. I don't know what happened in this particular case, but it reminds me of a local case I made myself familiar with that featured a lot of instant decisionmaking that turned out bad. 

A few years ago, I noticed a single paragraph in the local news blotter about a fatal shooting of a teenager in a local parking lot by a multi-departmental law enforcement task force of plain clothes officers who were "debriefing" after a drug raid at 9:30 on a Thursday evening. The police spokesman implied that the parking lot was a notorious drug trade area, and asserted that the dead young man had tried to run over the plainclothesmen while they were brawling with another man they had accosted for peering into parked cars. 

Wait a minute, I thought, that's dubious-sounding. First, I was peeved at the cop spokesman for demeaning local property values by claiming that everybody knows this parking lot is a drug mart. No, it's a nice parking lot with excellent lighting, a private security guard driving around in a golf cart, a constant flow of cars and respectable pedestrians at all hours, especially on a Thursday evening because the lot serves some fairly fashionable restaurants and bars. I've walked through that parking lot maybe a thousand times in my life. I've never seen any criminal activity there, whether drug dealing or breaking into cars, just bad driving. I had never once felt in any danger in that lot from criminals, but I've almost been run over more than a few times there by drivers zooming for the rare open parking space. Fortunately, when that happened, I wasn't packing any serious heat, so none of the bad drivers wound up dead. 

The more I looked into the official story, the less plausible it sounded. The victim / mad dog would-be vehicular murderer was a kid who had just graduated from high school, where he played in the string section in the school orchestra. His friends set up a Facebook page in memoriam and it was full of testimonies to his gentleness of his character from his many friends in orchestra and band, plus his friends' parents, and his teachers. There were zero gang-type testimonials saluting a fallen comrade, as you'll so often read in the comments to the LA Times homicide database.

My wife and I started playing amateur detective, both on the Internet and in person. I emailed the lawyer that the mother had hired to tell him that as a long time resident the official story sounded fishy to me, and gave him leads to look into. I didn't like the idea that I or my family might get shot by cops in the local parking lot with no open investigation or discussion in the press.

Exactly a week after the killing, my wife and I walked down to the parking lot to see what it looked like on a Thursday at 9:30 pm: what I recalled or what the police spokesman said. It looked like a place that cops would choose to debrief after getting pumped up in a drug raid, not because they could be looking for more criminals while they debrief, but because there are a few nice-looking would-be starlets around at that hour to ogle. (In this neighborhood, however, most of them are married.)

While my wife and I were standing in the parking lot, we noticed another middle-aged couple standing in the middle of the parking lot looking around in bewilderment and grief. "Those are the parents, I bet." And they were. They had come to talk to people who worked there at that hour, in hopes of finding out more about what had happened to their child. There were no video cameras recording the parking lot, in part because it's such a low crime area that there is little need for surveillance video. The police had not yet let the parents' lawyer talk to the one certain eyewitness, the man whom the out-of-uniform cops had attacked for looking into car windows.

The poor mother told us the cops hadn't notified her of her son's death for 12 hours. (That would have given them lots of time to get their stories straight, sober up, or whatever.) A week later, nobody had yet released the names of the shooters to her. We did our best to console the parents, and to tell them that as local residents who didn't have a dog in this fight, just a sense that some kind of injustice was going down, we thought they should press their investigation and seriously consider a lawsuit. 

Over time, more facts turned up that I won't go into here, including the only eyewitness, whose story made the cops look bad, but he had some credibility problems of his own. I don't know exactly what happened during the last few seconds of the kid's life, but it sounds like there was a good chance that various kinds of cops closed ranks for a whitewash.

A long time later, the D.A. issued a report exonerating the shooters, and then the mother filed a $10,000,000 wrongful death lawsuit, which hasn't yet been resolved. A year ago, my wife and son marched in a memorial demonstration to remember the kid and to call for a fair civil trial.

I'm keeping this story vague for a variety of reasons, such as not wanting to be tied to annoying about five different law-enforcement agencies. At one point I spent about a half-hour on the phone with an LAPD detective because neither of the shooters was LAPD. I pointed out that as a taxpayer for the LAPD, I wasn't crazy about other agencies "debriefing" on LAPD turf. But he didn't buy my rather blatant attempt at driving a wedge into the general cop fraternity, and got a little hot under the collar. Also, I don't want my quite peripheral participation to be a distraction in the upcoming civil trial of the mom's wrongful death suit. So, just a warning: if you uncover the name of the victim, I won't approve a comment linking to it. I don't mind you looking, but I want to keep the story anonymous for now.

Let's get back to Trayvon Martin for a moment and the question of race. Kevin Drum asserts in Mother Jones that it's a story of a ""black kid in Florida who got shot by a white..." and complains Fox News isn't giving this case wall to wall coverage, unlike less racist networks, because it was "black kid in Florida who got shot by a white..."

Now, in the case I investigated, I wasn't particularly sure from the unusual last name and his picture whether the victim was Anglo (in the L.A. sense of non-Hispanic white) or Hispanic. He was a dark-haired, dark-eyed kid who could have been Anglo white or light-skinned Hispanic. After meeting the mother, I figure he was Anglo. I only today found out the names of the two officers who shot him (the law enforcement agencies kept that covered up for a long time, perhaps in fear that the other members of the victim's string section in the orchestra might try to extract revenge upon them by, I don't know, playing out of tune under their windows). I'm guessing both shooters are whites.

Compared to Trayvon Martin, this shooting got very little initial coverage in the local press and zip in the national press. On the other hand, the kid's classmates from his mostly middle-class high school organized online in a variety of fairly effective ways and kept the story alive so it has kept popping up in the press, although never with a big splash. Online commenters kept prodding the L.A. Times and L.A. Weekly to look into the case more, which they've done in bits and pieces as events unfolded, but never making a big story out of it. You can follow the unfolding of the story with Google but you likely would never have noticed it if you were just a casual reader of the local news. I've never heard of any controversy over the case making the local TV news.

Basically, news organizations are quite dependent upon the criminal justice system to feed them the facts of crime stories, and when the cops want a story to get underplayed, they just keep the flow of facts to the bare minimum.

There has been no national interest in my local story whatsoever, and no outside organizations have taken an interest, presumably because of the lack of a racial angle.

On the other hand, the amount of self-organizing citizen activism has been above average. One black commenter on the web said something like this to the victims' friends, neighbors, and teachers, "Wow, you white people just won't let this go when one of your own gets shot by the cops. If this had happened in the 'hood, it would have been forgotten by now."

White people don't have anybody to stand up for them qua white people, but they are also pretty good at standing up for themselves.

The Trayvon Martin case sounds a lot like this fiasco, although the shooter, being an amateur neighborhood watch pseudo-cop has actually appeared to have gotten less protection in some ways than the professional cops in my local case, whose very names we couldn't learn for a long, long time.

The dead youth in Florida being black, the story fits the eternal hunt for Tom Wolfe's Great White Defendant, at least until you get a look at the shooter. The shooter's father calls his son Hispanic, and, indeed, he looks a little like the guy who don't need no steenking badges in the Treasure of Sierra Madre

Moreover, in Florida, there's a long tradition of Latinos in positions of authority shooting African-Americans in dubious circumstances -- that set off two or three major black riots in Miami in the 1980s. I don't think anybody remembers these riots anymore.

As Bonfire of the Vanities pointed out in 1987, most day to day routines of the criminal justice system consist of dealing with minority screw-ups brutalizing other minorities. It's boring and depressing work. So, there is a deep hunger for the occasional man-bites-dog story of a white brutalizing a black, which leads to people like Kevin screwing up and getting the race of the shooter wrong. 

220 comments:

1 – 200 of 220   Newer›   Newest»
Olave d'Estienne said...

In a couple of minutes they'll be lots of arguments over whether Kevin meant "white" as ethnicity or race. IMHO, it correctly refers to an ethnicity and not a race.

mel belli said...

I hope the family in your local case hired either Larry Grassini (north hollywood) or John C. Taylor (Wilshire blvd.) to handle that case. Those two have been the most successful jury lawyers in California over the last 25 yrs.

hailtoyou said...

The Florida shooter is named George Zimmerman, of Hispanic origin but adopted by Jews, according to Lurker of MR:
______________________
You mean the hispanic guy who shot a black kid. He’s hispanic with adoptive jewish parents. Hence the name George Zimmerman. He’s only ‘white’ for the purpose of demonizing whites and their racism. Had Zimmerman been the victim of black violence it might have been spun as anti-semitic. Had he been the victim of white violence it could have been anti-semitic or anti-hispanic - or both!

josh said...

Looking at the facts of this case shows clearly that this little black 'chile" was viciously beating Zimmerman. A man was interviewed,who lived right at the spot of the beating,who was too scared to assist Zimmerman. He heard Zimmerman,and clearly it WAS Zimmerman, crying for help.If he had helped,then maybe poor dear sweet Trayvon would still be with us,and he mightve still made it to college. But he didnt.He ran into his house and locked his door(to protect himself against Zimmerman,who was on the ground bleeding?Or from dear sweet lil ole Trayvon,the 6'4 black male smashing the other guys head against the pavement? Gee I dont know!)and called 911. There is no comparison betwen YOUR story and this one. I cant believe the extraordinarily stupid comments I am seeing at sites like Atlantic monthly. Guys whose ass is NOT on the sidewalk getting beaten,who are willing to dispassionately try the case and magesterially declare that murder has occured! Idiots. They want to show how they rae "down" with the blacks. From a safe distance. Black males are extremely arrogant and hostile. This thug was outraged that he would be challenged,saw a man that he could easily beat up,and had no qualms about making this altercation physical.He was a fool,and I have zero sympathy for him. Self defense!

Mike said...

As a frequent reader I think I live in the same area that you live in in LA, I read the news a lot and I have no idea what case you are referring to.
Yet I am very aware of the Florida case.
Kinda nuts.

Pincher Martin said...

Josh overstates the case, but he's right that it appears Zimmerman, who had found his calling by helping make his marginal gated community a little safer, was overzealous in performing his duties as he saw them and eventually forced to shoot a kid who had physically turned the tables on him.

We don't know enough to be sure. The media reports are spotty and sometimes contradictory. A couple of the witnesses, for example, claim that it was Martin, not Zimmerman, who cried out for help. But listening to the 911 tapes and reading various reports about the incident over the last couple of days, it appears Zimmerman saw himself as the neighborhood protector, chased after what looked to him like a suspicious young man, and eventually got into trouble when the kid either got cornered or got tired of running.

Anonymous said...

"In a couple of minutes they'll be lots of arguments over whether Kevin meant "white" as ethnicity or race. IMHO, it correctly refers to an ethnicity and not a race."

That's precisely why I don't like the word: it's too ambiguous. You are never certain if someone means race or ethnicity.

Steve Sailer said...

Dear Mike:

Yeah, it's the big parking lot behind the NW corner of V and LC Blvds. Not a place where people get killed all the time.

The media is really dependent upon the cops / DA to feed them facts for local crime stories. The cops didn't want this getting a lot of press so they didn't provide a lot of facts.

Also, the kid who got shot was a popular, respected member of a middle class community at the far end of the SFV, so at first they accepted the notion that he had somehow blundered into some urban drug market wasteland. "He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time." I spent a lot of time online pointing out to his friends and teachers that the cops were giving them the wrong impression, that this was a safe, respectable parking lot that was a perfectly reasonable place for two people to meet up before going on to, say, the movies at Universal CityWalk, where the parking charge would be $9 per car.

Peter said...

it appears Zimmerman, who had found his calling by helping make his marginal gated community a little safer, was overzealous in performing his duties as he saw them and eventually forced to shoot a kid who had physically turned the tables on him

By most accounts Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 100 pounds or even more. I hardly think any tables were turned.

Anonymous said...

Steve, you need to at least give the name of the kid.

Truth said...

"Looking at the facts of this case shows clearly that this little black 'chile" was viciously beating Zimmerman."

...Well uh, except that he was 16, and Zimmerman, a 28 year old who outweighed him by 100 lbs., had ignored the 911 command not to follow him, and was not a registered member of a neighborhood watch...

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/18/446768/what-everyone-should-know-about-about-trayvon-martin-1995-2012/?mobile=nc

Steve Sailer said...

No, actually I don't.

I really don't like the idea that several different law-enforcement agencies could know that I put in about 50 hours of Miss Marple-style amateur sleuthing to help a family with their big money wrongful death suit.

No Name said...

"By most accounts Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 100 pounds or even more. I hardly think any tables were turned."

Depends on what that 100 lbs. were. Fat? Besides a 150 lbs - in shape - 16 y/o who hits you on the back of the head, and slams you to the ground, could easily beat up an overweight 250 dude.

Fights aren't just about weight, but speed and quickness, and getting in the first sucker punch means a lot.

No Name said...

So Steve why did the cops kill the student? What was he supposed to have done to deserve it?

You left that out.

Anonymous said...

Truth

While Zimmerman outweighed the kid.

The Black kid was also 6'3 140lb football player.

I doubt George Zimmerman was anywhere near that height, not to mention that when the police arrived Zimmerman has a bloody nose.

Chris Anderson said...

If this case didn't have a white on black racial angle (figuratively man-bites-dog), it would be an Orlando local news story. Maybe other FLA media markets because of the stand your ground gun angle, but no more. That's the nature of 99.9% of crime and violence stories.

I, too, thought of Tom Wolfe.

Anonymous said...

"White people don't have anybody to stand up for them qua white people"


qua? have your philosopher readers rubbed off on you more than you've let on?

Truth said...

Hey, you guys know how much I love you. If the (so called) anti-white press will ignore the Great white defendant you can always count on Truth!

Peter said...

Trayvon Martin was very tall, either 6'3" or 6'4", yet weighed about 140 pounds. He wasn't rippling with rock-hard muscles like the blogosphere thinks all black males are, in fact he was downright skeletal.

RKU said...

Well, isn't LA about 60% NAM and probably less than 20% white European these days? Seems to me that in lots of other big cities with those sorts of demographics, the biggest danger isn't get shot by a couple of (maybe) trigger-happy white police officers.

Pincher Martin said...

Peter,

"By most accounts Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 100 pounds or even more. I hardly think any tables were turned."

Zimmerman was a more mature man, much heavier than the kid, and yet still in good enough shape to chase after the teen. So I imagine he didn't expect the kid could beat him up.

The kid was skinny, but 6'3" and athletic. He played football, so contact wasn't a problem for him.

The police officer who interviewed Zimmerman at the scene reported that Zimmerman's "back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head."

I would guess that the kid probably surprised Zimmerman with his aggression, put him on his back with a wrestling move, and perhaps hit him in the face or head a couple of times. That's certainly, by any definition, turning the tables on him.

Anonymous said...

had ignored the 911 command not to follow him, and was not a registered member of a neighborhood watch...>

While we're pretty close to a police state, I still don't think that we're compelled to take police orders over the phone telling us we can't take a walk or a drive in the street. But Z *did* seem to violate common sense in pursuing Martin.

And what legal standing does this "neighborhood watch" stuff have? What is it you can supposedly do when you're "registered" as a member of the "neighborhood watch" as opposed to an ordinary citizen?

Pincher Martin said...

"...Well uh, except that he was 16, and Zimmerman, a 28 year old who outweighed him by 100 lbs., had ignored the 911 command not to follow him, and was not a registered member of a neighborhood watch..."

Except for Zimmerman's weight, you have every single detail here wrong.

The kid was 17 years old, not 16.

The 911 dispatcher can't "command" Zimmerman not to follow the suspicious character.

And Zimmerman was the "captain" of his gated community's neighborhood watch, and had been monitoring the community for the last eight years.

Anonymous said...

a middle class white kid got shot by the LAPD?

that's progress.

Anonymous said...

"By most accounts Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 100 pounds or even more. I hardly think any tables were turned."

100 pounds of muscle beats 200 pounds of fat, until a gun gets pulled out. I weigh a lot less, and am in much better shape than I was 5 years ago, it is noticable.

Zimmerman put himself in a bad position, as did Trayvon and now national interests have descended on the case. This will be a media spectacle, but ultimately Zimmerman will be cleared of wrong doing.

"So Steve why did the cops kill the student? What was he supposed to have done to deserve it?

You left that out."

The cops claimed he was trying to run them over during a brawl with druglords or something.

Anonymous said...

There are many things said wrongly and not said at all about this story that clearly show the media has an AGENDA. First he was 17, not 16. He was at least 6'2", or taller. Although he may have been lighter then Zimmerman, probably none of his weight was fat. He may have got in the first blow (the notorious black sucker punch). He would probably have been much faster and more agile. But what really gets me is why Zimmerman is being called "white". Look at a picture of the guy. He is clearly a Hispanic, with light to medium brown skin.

Anonymous said...

So, there is a deep hunger for the occasional man-bites-dog story of a white brutalizing a black, which leads to people like Kevin screwing up and getting the race of the shooter wrong.

If that's supposed to be sarcasm it's a little too broad.

BTW, Google Trevor Dooley.

Peter said...

The Black kid was also 6'3 140lb football player.

What was he, a goal post?

The blogosphere fetishizes black men as being packed with rock-hard fast twitch muscles, and possessing excellent street fighting skills. In reality, Trayvon Martin was a beanpole and, almost certainly, far weaker than the vast majority of adult men.

SF said...

A little OT, CNN's Anderson Cooper has been talking almost every night about the criminals pardoned by outgoing governor Haley Barbour. They had all served 20 years. One of them was a white guy who shot his wife in cold blood and wounded the wife's boyfriend. The boyfriend has been interviewed several times, but we are not supposed to notice that he is racially mixed, let alone think that this might still be a mitigating circumstance in Miss.

Anonymous said...

You are never certain if someone means race or ethnicity.

That's because there is no discernible difference between the meaning of the two terms.

race=ethnicity

Anonymous said...

6'3" and only 140 pounds??

Either the height is exaggerated or the weight must be greater.

Truth said...

"The Black kid was also 6'3 140lb football player."

6'3 140? Guys were making way for him on the sidewalk!

OK, let's stick to a few basic facts. A grown man playing Barney Fife in a neighborhood spots a black kid walking down the street. he follows him in his car, in direct violation of what he is told by the police, who said that they were on their way. He then drives up to the kid to confront him. There is a confrontation, so obviously he gets out of his car. He fires a shot, so obviously once again, he is carrying a weapon when he steps out of the car.

The weapon was a 9mm which is a fairly large gun and the event happened in Florida which tends to be warm, and he was in his car, so there is very good chance that he was not wearing a jacket, so to summarize;

You are a 140 lb. teenager in a suburban neighborhood who is being followed by a man in a car without a uniform. A very large man stops, exits the car with a gun on his hip and asks you where you are going.

You played football in highschool, you run fast.

You are fairly confident in your hypothesis that bullets are faster.

You do not know that the man has just referred to you on a 911 tape as a "spook" and an "asshole", but those things do point to the strong possibility that Zimmerman was not speaking to him in a "Mr. Rogers" tone of voice.

Nor does his arrest for assaulting a police officer 6 years earlier.

You quickly size the situation up. Now remember, you are a 16 year old not PHD in personality psychology you options seemingly are.

1) outrun a bullet

2) allow the large man with the large gun, who has spent his entire life playing pretend vice-squad cop make the decisive move, and react to if (if you are still alive).

3) make an offensive move to try to dislodge his weapon...

Truth said...

Now the scenario I just posted was the most fair scenario that I could have in terms of Zimmerman. What is more likely, given his background, his behavior and hobby is that he got out of the car, and immediately tried to "arrest the suspect" possibly with his gun drawn and a cheap pair of handcuffs and got involved in a scuffle. With the "suspect" not seening a uniform, a police cruiser, a badge, or a flashing blue light, and rightfully feeling he was being kidnapped.

You people tend to feel that African-American males are superhumans, and that is your right, but in my personal history, I do not know to many suburban 140 lb. teenagers who are looking to initiate a fistfight with 5'8 (let's say for argument's sake) 250 grown man. And that's before you take into account the fact the he has a gun.

Steve Sailer said...

"a middle class white kid got shot by the LAPD?"

Neither shooter was LAPD.

I tried to get an LAPD detective to look into it, but it turned out that one or more of the other three "debriefers" was LAPD, so he was highly offended that I was skeptical of the official account.

Truth said...

From the article you posted:

SANFORD, Fla. - George Zimmerman once took criminal justice classes at the community college and was practically a one-man neighborhood watch in his gated part of town, calling police close to 50 times over the past eight years to report such things as slow-driving vehicles, strangers loitering in the neighborhood and open garages.

Note that it calls Zimmerman a "one-man neighborhood watch program; as in "unsanctioned" It says he was captain of absolutely nothing. In fact, he was not even A MEMBER of the neighborhood watch.

Here's a quote from another article:

Now, through a statement released by the National Sheriffs' Association (NSA) -- the parent organization of USAonWatch-Neighborhood Watch -- it has been revealed that Zimmerman was not a member of any group recognized by the organization. Zimmerman violated the central tenets of Neighborhood Watch by following Martin, confronting him and carrying a concealed weapon.
"In no program that I have ever heard of does someone patrol with a gun in their pocket," Carmen Caldwell, the Executive Director of Citizens' Crime Watch of Miami-Dade,"

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization.php

Anonymous said...

To Josh:
The tape has someone shrieking in what sounds like mortal terror a split second before the gunshot. It sounds like someone who knows he is about to get shot, not like someone who is being beaten up. I would be very surprised if the shrieking came from the shooter.

Also, though I don't know the relevant law, I feel that even if the teenager who had been chased/hunted down had turned the tables on his stalker, the shooting of the teenager should be considered murder. I am surprised none of the media reports that refer to the "Stand Your Ground" law make the argument that *even if* the teenager had been beating up and (as he thought) incapacitating his stalker instead of fleeing, he may have had the law on his side.
--Morgan C

Steve Sailer said...

The undercover cops being out of of uniform probably played an unfortunate role in precipitating the fatal fiasco. The whole incident that launched it when the "debriefing" officer confronted this man walking through the parking lot looking in cars (he was looking for the kid who wound up getting shot whom he was supposed to meet there), sounded like the Onion headline about "Five dudes suddenly start whaling on this one guy."

Anonymous said...

Yikes, I just learned about the case Steve's referring to-- horrifying. I used to work two blocks from that corner of Studio City. It's a safe neighborhood of mid-level Hollywood types, with lots of pretty young women out on the sidewalks in the evening. The only gangs you'll find there are roving TV writing staffs from CBS Radford headed for the Artisan Cheese Gallery. I'll respect Steve's wishes and not name the victim...it's already easy enough to tell which comments in the neighborhood blogs are from Mr. Sailer anyway.

As for the Martin case, it's a reminder of how harmful America's failure to be honest about issues of race and crime. The mainstream right is busily denying that Martin was targeted by Zimmerman because he was a black teenager in a hoodie walking through his neighborhood at night, when it's obvious that he was. What's left unsaid is why black teenager in hoodie= scary threat for many people of all races (recall Jesse Jackson's famous admission of feeling relief when he realized the teens following behind him were white.)

And yet, think of how rotten it is to be a law abiding young black man and still get followed by store security in department stores, targeted by wannabe cops like Zimmerman, and generally be under a presumption of criminal guilt. It's human nature to not want to blame the actual criminals for screwing it up for you, so we never actually have an honest discussion of how to be wary of teenage thugs without automatically assuming that every black kid out there is a criminal. Trayvon Martin shouldn't have been followed and shot to death in his own neighborhood for the crime of going out to get a pack of skittles and an iced tea.

Anonymous said...

"the only eyewitness, whose story made the cops look bad, but he had some credibility problems of his own"

Yep, more than a little creepy.

So did you ever find out if the high schooler was this guy's "conquest"? And if so, whether he knew the creep's true motivations?

Anonymous said...

I did find that story about the shooting in your (Steve Sailer's) neighborhood and it just reeks of cops panicking and lashing out. Decades of leftist politicians in charge of hiring and training police has produced a police force that reflects a leftist emotional state. It is juvenile, high-strung, quick to take offense, panicky and incapable of taking responsibility when it all comes a cropper. These days I avoid any contact with the police. I won't even report a crime. I treat them just as I would any other gang.

Peter said...

The weapon was a 9mm which is a fairly large gun

There are some 9's which weigh less than a pound.

Truth said...

"There are some 9's which weigh less than a pound."

There are some Asian guys who play pro basketball, too.

Kylie said...

This reminds me of the national furor over Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom. Their names were splashed all over the MSM. Seems like the whole country talked about nothing else for weeks on end. There were all the marches, the petitions, the calls for justice.

Oh, wait....

Truth said...

"As for the Martin case, it's a reminder of how harmful America's failure to be honest about issues of race and crime. The mainstream right is busily denying that Martin was targeted by Zimmerman because he was a black teenager in a hoodie walking through his neighborhood at night, when it's obvious that he was. What's left unsaid is why black teenager in hoodie=....And yet, think of how rotten it is to be a law abiding young black man and still get followed by store security in department stores, targeted by wannabe cops like Zimmerman, and generally be under a presumption of criminal guilt. It's human nature to not want to blame the actual criminals for screwing it up for you, so we never actually have an honest discussion of how to be wary of teenage thugs without automatically assuming that every black kid out there is a criminal. Trayvon Martin shouldn't have been followed and shot to death in his own neighborhood for the crime of going out to get a pack of skittles and an iced tea."

That is absolutely right. One of the best paragraphs I've ever read on this site.

White people are totally delusional that there is no such thing as racism, where as black people are delsuional in their thinking that there is no ground for white people to believe in black stereotypes. Holder was correct.

Truth said...

"Seems like the whole country talked about nothing else for weeks on end. There were all the marches, the petitions, the calls for justice."

I didn't see you holding up any signs. Oh, Desperate Houswives was on, that's right.

Anonymous said...

White people are totally delusional that there is no such thing as racism

I'm not sure what your definition of "racism" is, but "racism" is simply rationality i.e. thinking about and assigning and weighing things proportionally.

Anonymous said...

Re: the "size of the gun" debate:

It's been reported that Zimmerman was carrying a Kel Tec 9mm. It's one of the smallest 9mm pistols available, which are not "fairly large" to begin with.

Mr. Anon said...

"Anonymous said...

And what legal standing does this "neighborhood watch" stuff have? What is it you can supposedly do when you're "registered" as a member of the "neighborhood watch" as opposed to an ordinary citizen?"

A good point. Following the advice of "law enforcement authorities" is often a good way to get yourself killed. And by what right do the police tell citizens that they have no right to be concerained with goings on in their own neighborhood.

As to that "registered neighborhood" watch, that's just the kind of crap that "Truth" makes up in order to further his actual agenda - sticking up for black felons. You can sign up for a neighborhood watch, but it confers no additional rights or obligations.

inkblot said...

He was supposedly talking to his girlfriend on his phone, and she heard part of it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/20/trayvon-martin-death-phone-call

(This article calls Zimmerman a Hispanic.)

Pincher Martin said...

Truth,

"Now the scenario I just posted was the most fair scenario that I could have in terms of Zimmerman."

You don't know what you're talking about. Your scenario is ignorant of so many details about the Martin shooting that it's obvious you either haven't read anything about the case or can't retain anything you read.

"Note that it calls Zimmerman a "one-man neighborhood watch program; as in "unsanctioned" It says he was captain of absolutely nothing. In fact, he was not even A MEMBER of the neighborhood watch."

You must be an idiot. Here's the article again for your reeducation. But this time I'll helpfully link to the second web page, where the top paragraph has this from the homeowner's association:

"'“If you’ve been the victim of a crime within the community, after calling the police, please contact our captain, George Zimmerman … so we can be aware and help address the issue with other residents,” the newsletter said. It added that the neighborhood watch group was looking for more participants at its monthly meetings."

I hope the bold html helps clears up whatever disability you have with reading simple English.

Paul Rain said...

Oh no, Zimmermann wasn't a member of any Registered Neighbourhood Watch group. Was he also not a member of a bowling club with twenty years in the AARP? Sounds like a highly suspicious character.

But seriously, that LA shooting does sound tragic. In his case, the obligatory 'honor student' description actually counts for something.

Mr. Anon said...

Trayvon Martin may not exactly be the poster child you are looking for Steve, but you are right that a lot of the cops in this country are becoming insufferable, power-mad jerks, not just individiually, but as organizations. The militarization of local police forces is not something that a free people ought to welcome. Consider this case, for example:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/tucson-swat-team-defends-shooting-iraq-marine-veteran/story?id=13640112#.T2q2atnnnxs

In the case you mentioned Steve, what did they mean by "de-brief"? Did they mean interrogate? Don't they have a station-house for that (and one no doubt full of cameras)? Do they routinely take people to parking lots for interogation? Sounds fishy to me.

Anonymous said...

“The weapon was a 9mm which is a fairly large gun…”

9mm is a caliber, not a make or model of gun. A 9mm could be of virtually any size, from a tiny pocket pistol to a carbine.

Paul Rain said...

The size of the gun doesn't really play into this- one tends to notice that men of a certain girth don't worry too much about sweating a little, and if they do, they deal with it by insulating the body odor with multiple layers. None of the Kel-Tec 9mm's are as small as the really, really compact 9mm's out there nowadays, or even the gutless little 32ACPs from half a century ago.. but they are really much the same size as a little snub-nosed revolver. Cops never had any trouble finding a place to store on of those.

Steve Sailer said...

Militarization of cops ... Yeah, it's just more awesome to pretend you are SeAL Team 6 than admit you are a cop on the beat.

Chicago said...

Guys with PTSD are coming out of the service after multiple deployments and onto police departments near you.

Pincher Martin said...

The facts of the case and sequence of events are pretty straightforward.

Zimmerman was a homeowner in a gated community. But his neighborhood was more aspirational than most gated communities. Unlike wealthier neighborhoods, there was no private security force hired to drive around at night and make sure the local property owners were being protected. Perhaps as a result, the area had some serious problems with property crimes perpetrated by outsiders walking in and stealing what they could.

According to this Miami Herald article, the police had been called to the Twin Lakes more than 400 times over the last fourteen months. That's pretty serious for a gated community, especially when you consider the entire point of living in a gated community is to get away from outsiders intruding on, and potentially expropriating or destroying, your property.

Zimmerman was sort of a marginal man living in marginal area. It doesn't appear he was fully employed, and he had some of his own troubles with the law in the past. But he took his informal duties as a neighborhood watch pretty seriously and his neighbors seemed to like him and trust him with their property. He helped arrest one burglar and chased off a few others. Some neighbors asked him to look after their property when they went on vacation.

Zimmerman was also overzealous in his informal duties, but that's an understandable trait for a young, aspirational, and not well-educated male to have in a marginal community. He thought of himself and his neighbors as homeowners who needed protecting, and they certainly did need protecting.

Zimmerman's 911 call on the night he shot and killed Martin describes in real-time what he thought of Martin's actions as he was seeing them. It was a rainy night, and Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Martin was a black teenage male standing around, wearing a hoodie, and holding something in his hand. Zimmerman later tells the dispatcher that Martin is staring at him, and that he appears to be on drugs. Zimmerman even reports that the young black male is walking towards Zimmerman before suddenly the young kid flees. (Which sounds to me like Martin tried to physically bluff Zimmerman and then decided to take off.)

When Martin flees, Zimmerman goes after the kid, which the dispatcher immediately tells him not to do. Zimmerman doesn't acknowledge the request, perhaps because he feels safe or perhaps because he's been doing this proactive neighborhood security detail for so long that he thinks it's not a big deal. Martin's 911 call ends soon afterwards.

But other 911 calls by neighbors in the area of the shooting describe what else happened. Two men were heard shouting at each other, "wrestling" [heard, not seen], cries of one of the men shouting "help, help!", and finally the tragic shooting. Zimmerman claims he was the one crying for help, but there's some dispute about that from the victim's family and friends. Whatever Zimmerman and Martin said to each other before the assault, who first initiated the physical contact, and exactly when and why Zimmerman pulled out his gun and shot the kid remains unknown. But the police officer at the scene said the physical evidence on Zimmerman (grass stains on his back, bloody head and nose), and the witness accounts, collaborated his story.

Anonymous said...

Just saw an LA Times article on the case you referenced Steve. Wow.

Do you know what the alleged injuries were of the Cop who was allegedly struck? Where he was treated? The allegation is that he was hit so hard he was vaulted over another car.

The case smells to high heaven to me as well. Particularly in that the cops apparently neglected to identify themselves at any time during the incident and *abracadabra* they managed to dig up some dirt on the eyewitness and immediately release it to the press.

I used to be a cop booster when younger but after seeing dozens of these types of literally *incredible* police recounted fact patterns in shootings over the past few years my position has changed quite a bit.

Anonymous said...

Regarding the Zimmerman case, either he was justified in shooting under Florida law or he was not. The discussion of race and size, etc is just dross.

Beecher Asbury said...

I get ticked when cases like this get all the attention especially now that we know the shooter wasn't the great white perp. The democrats better be careful lest they get a tribal war going between blacks and Hispanics in an election year.

For those interested, just click onto this story from the Daily Mail about a murder in Oklahoma. Yea, I know it's a shame I have to read about it from a UK paper.

You don't even need to read the thing. Just click the link and look at the photos. And ask yourself why this is not getting attention.

Insp. Gadget said...

Decades of leftist politicians in charge of hiring and training police has produced a police force that reflects a leftist emotional state. It is juvenile, high-strung, quick to take offense, panicky and incapable of taking responsibility when it all comes a cropper.

Oh, come on. I hate the nanny state as much as the next fascist, but you can hardly lay this attitude on the part of cops at the foot of leftists. This is standard cop behavior in any community. Pretty much by definition, cops enjoy exerting their will on others. Generally, they do so with the low-lifes in society, and the "decent" folk don't care much what happens to them. The problems arise when the cops "do a number" on the wrong person.

This "authoritarian" streak (and the inclination of the fraternal order to close ranks when mistakes are made) doesn't come from the leftists. They're all like that.

Beecher Asbury said...

I am reading the comments to the story Steve linked at Mother Jones. A few commenters have tried to point out that Zimmerman is not white, but Hispanic. The other commenters are proceeding to lecture that Hispanics are white or that Zimmerman is Spanish, etc. None of them will do what the one commenter suggested and just google for an image of Zimmerman.

It seems they all want to believe what the Kevin Drum wrote in the story, that this is about white racism, and none of them want to see the photo to have this fantasy shattered.

Agent Tracy said...

Steve, you need to at least give the name of the kid.

Anyone with ability to use a computer should be able to google the name in a nano-second. If you can't figure it out on your own, you're either really lazy or really dumb.

Or both, of course.

Truth said...

"A good point. Following the advice of "law enforcement authorities" is often a good way to get yourself killed."

Oh yes, of course, that's the aim of the police department, to get people killed.


"And by what right do the police tell citizens that they have no right to be concerained with goings on in their own neighborhood."

The police did not tell anyone that he had no right to be concerned with goings on in their own neighborhood. The police told someone not to play policeman, and accost someone on his way home from 7-11.

Seeing as how it may cost Mr. Zimmerman 25 years of his life, I'd say it was good advice, eh, Grasshopper?

As to that "registered neighborhood" watch, that's just the kind of crap that "Truth" makes up..."

Uh no, I didn not make anything up, I posted a link.

...in order to further his actual agenda - sticking up for black felons."

And where again, Sherlock, did I "stick up" for anyone?

"You can sign up for a neighborhood watch, but it confers no additional rights or obligations."

Oh no, of course, but it does put you in with a group of other people, which in turn discourages lone nutcases who have been watching too much Hawaii 5-0 from shooting kids carrying skittles and iced tea.

Truth said...

"'s been reported that Zimmerman was carrying a Kel Tec 9mm. It's one of the smallest 9mm pistols available, which are not "fairly large" to begin with."

Yes, but larger than most .22's and probably, being almost six inches long, and 5 inches high, too large to fit in an average pocket which leads back to my original point which is; for the second fucking time, that he was probably wearing it on a holster, or in his waistband, without a jacket because he was in a car if Florida.

Would you please take some remedial reading classes?

Truth said...

"You must be an idiot. Here's the article again for your reeducation. But this time I'll helpfully link to the second web page, where the top paragraph has this from the homeowner's association:"

Great and I will post the VERY NEXT paragraph of YOUR link:

"USAonWatch, the national neighborhood watch organization, said Zimmerman’s watch had never registered with the group. A vice president of the homeowners association didn’t return a call Wednesday."

Truth said...

"You don't know what you're talking about. Your scenario is ignorant of so many details about the Martin shooting that it's obvious you either haven't read anything about the case or can't retain anything you read."

Thanks for the list of "details" that I was "ignorant" of.

Truth said...

"I'm not sure what your definition of "racism" is, but "racism" is simply rationality i.e. thinking about and assigning and weighing things proportionally."

OK, so the zebra killers were "assigning and weighing things proportionally."

Truth said...

BTW:

Steve, you have to be happy that you have so many Mexican Jews as readers.

Andrew Gilbert said...

Okay, 60 comments in and no one has mentioned the truly infuriating part of this case, the obviously shoddy police work in the aftermath of the shooting. Whatever the ethnic identity of the shooter, the racial dynamic arose when the white police captain of Sanford ran what can charitably be described as a half-assed investigation that neglected basic things like drug/alcohol testing Zimmerman. The police misinformed Martin's parents, saying that Zimmerman had a spotless record, and basically gave every indication that they had no intention of seriously investigating the case.

In the case Steve mentions the blue wall seems to be protecting other cops. But the cops investigating Martin's shooting seem to be protecting an overzealous private citizen who provoked a confrontation with a law abiding minor. What's the motive, except maybe laziness or a very casual attitude toward the killing of a black teenager.

No Name said...

Listen to the 911 tapes. There's a man crying "help, help, help" - then a gunshot.

The voice isn't that of a teenager or a black person.

Wonder who it could be...

Steve Sailer said...

Beecher Asbury says: "None of them will do what the one commenter suggested and just google for an image of Zimmerman."

Right, the comments are pretty hilarious.

Thomas said...

"Debrief," huh? I don't suppose there are any convenient local watering holes near this parking lot. It may be hard to find this long after the fact, but the family's attorney ought to look into subpoenaing their receipts to see if this "debrief" included a couple of rounds.

Mack said...

What the Martin shooting really comes down to is whether Martin assaulted Zimmerman just before he was shot. On this point the evidence seems to point towards the conclusion that he did indeed attack Zimmerman first. What the Racialists seem to be implying is that such an assault would have been justified due to Zimmerman’s potentially racist behaviour in following Martin. In other words, I can see a push to expand upon the definition of a hate crime in order to justify violence by minorities if they feel someone is being racist towards them. Because even if we take the worse case and say Zimmerman was a racist and simply followed Martin because he was black, as things stand now this still does not give Martin the right to assault Zimmerman. Soon there will be a “race-defense” category that is analogous to self-defense, where if a protected-category person "reasonable" felt they were the victim of racism (or sexism or homophobia) they could use violent force to stop the perceived racist behaviour.

And since everyone knows blacks cannot be racist towards whites, this defense would not be available to European-Americans.

Full Sail said...

From the Miami Herald:

Martin, who was from Miami Gardens, was killed in Sanford, a town of 55,000 just north of Orlando. His father took Trayvon there after the junior was suspended for 10 days from Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High.

The family has refused to say why Trayvon was suspended, only offering that he had violated school policy. They said his act was not violent or criminal.

“I wanted him to get back focused on his priorities, his goals,” Martin said of his decision to drive to Sanford with his son. “I wanted some one-on-one time.”

__________

When police approached Trayvon’s body on the grassy path between the townhouse back porches, they found no I.D. on him. Police ran his fingerprints, but found no record that would help identify him.

When he didn’t return back to the townhouse, it would be another 12 hours before Tracy Martin found out his son was dead.

“I started making calls to see if he was arrested [emphasis added],” he said.
_________

Sounds like an adolescent in crisis.

Anonymous said...

The fact is the media industry HAS an agenda - and pushes that agenda pretty remorselessly.
Despite the internet, they are still the gatekeepers of national discourse and choose to publicize what *they* consider to be 'worthy'.

Note the incessant, sturation publicity given in Britain to the Stephen Lawrence case - yes, a worthy case by sure, but the stories of many others who have been murdered in equally terrible circumstances, and whose murderers have never been punished, have gone largely ignored.

Dude said...

I'm confused. How could a "white" man shoot a "black" man when race doesn't even exist?

Steve Sailer said...

Dear Drunk Idiot:

Thanks. I want to write up a column of Chicago crime reminiscences and tie it, somehow or another to the current ridiculous level of crime in Chicago. Crime was pretty bad in Chicago in 1990, but it was probably worse in New York. Now, New York is a lot better, and Chicago is much worse than New York. How come?

I like the Italian mob theory. I had a friend who was always trying to talk me into moving to some dubious fringe neighborhood where he was buying up property because what would be better for real estate values than a Giant Yuppie walking the streets. He always claimed the Italian mob kept crack out of Chicago.

Got any other theories?

Anonymous said...

This sounds like a terrible tragedy all around, but can anybody explain what Trayvon was doing on the path between the town house BACK porches?

From the Miami Herald article: "When police approached Trayvon’s body on the grassy path between the townhouse back porches, they found no I.D. on him."

BrokenSymmetry said...

You're a good man Steve, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Slightly OT, but while lost on a bike-trip in England many years ago, one of the cyclists (who was English) flagged down a passing police patrol car for directions. The lone American in our group (white) was turning green around the gills, according to him, in the States, one never, never ever draws attention to oneself from the police short of an actual crime situation.

Silver said...

But what really gets me is why Zimmerman is being called "white". Look at a picture of the guy. He is clearly a Hispanic, with light to medium brown skin.

Incredible. He doesn't even look close to white/European. How in the world is it not anti-white to attribute a crime by an obvious hispanic to a white and then proceed to use the occasion to beat up whites for "racism"?

Right, the comments are pretty hilarious.

Bunch of silly white liberals trying desperately hard to "not be racist." (Googling up a picture is a cut and dried case of "racism," obviously.) I wonder if these people ever consider how stupid they look to people outside the cult?

Truth,

"As for the Martin case, it's a reminder of how harmful America's failure to be honest about issues of race and crime. The mainstream right is busily denying that Martin was targeted by Zimmerman because he was a black teenager in a hoodie walking through his neighborhood at night, when it's obvious that he was."

I'm all for being honest and truthful about race. The truth is that the presence of a large number of blacks is devastating to white communities. [Do you disagree, Truth?] People should not be denying that the black teenager was profiled. People should admit it and encourage the practise. Ironically, more black criminals in prison results in safer neighborhoods for both whites and blacks, even though angry blacks, consumed with animosity against whites, typically fail to see this.

Lastly, let's be serious: who'd prefer a George Zimmerman in their neighborhood to a Trayvon Martin? Answers itself doesn't it.

Anonymous said...

Some of you need to improve your google fu. There are easily enough key words given by Steve for any proficient googler to find it. I found it in about 5 minutes.

Joseph said...

In Farmington, NY, last year, police responded to the report of a man wearing a hoodie and threatening to produce a handgun at a party. They went to a mobile home and an officer peered through the small windows on top of the closed front door as he rang the door. He saw inside a shadowy figure approaching the door holding a cell phone in her hand (he thought it may be a gun). The officer shot twice through a little window pane, striking the occupant twice. The office was exonerated of any fault. He felt threatened. So when your pansy architect wants to put "side lites" on each side of your front door, say "No, I rather go the manly 81 way: 3/4" thk diamond plate and forget the stupid windows except for the peephole."

Anonymous said...

I think it's time to dust off this article you wrote 6 years ago, Steve.

http://isteve.blogspot.com.au/2006/04/do-cops-need-much-iq.html

Perhaps this unfortunate police shooting incident is one of the unintended consequences of the stratification of society by IQ. Which is caused on the one hand by the effective recruitment of high IQ in corporations, universities and professions. And on the other hand, by the high IQ being able to demand excellent compensation and working conditions in line with their abilities.

The most able tend to enter professions such as medicine, law, engineering or go into business for themselves. In my experience, I had 3 friends or acquaintances that were all top 1% in high school, or thereabouts. Two went into medicine, two went into engineering. What do those occupations have in common? Great remuneration and clean, non-risky work. And if one of us had decided to enter the legal profession it would be much the same there.

We were not unique. Across lots of the Western world, others were performing the same calculus and entering the same careers. So on a macro level the consequences of all the high IQ people entering these occupations is that it deprives other occupations of high IQ people that they might have had in previous eras.

How many high IQ people are going to be entering the police force? Not many. But they still have a need for effective leadership and skill in the analytical positions that high IQ is going to bring. The absence of these people is noticed when these organizations start behaving incompetently, and perhaps this is a case in point.

How to fix this? Either have another great depression to force some high IQ people into these careers to "take one for the team", or make such careers as police work equally attractive for a few high IQ hires - with the offer of higher pay, cushier environment, less risk and more analytical work.

I don't think that putting a cap on engineering or doctor salaries is really going to do anything at this stage - the genie is out of the bottle. People and organizations are starting to wake up to the fact that IQ is important and profitable. Best to realize this and recruit accordingly.

The Dude said...

>>So Steve why did the cops kill the student? What was he supposed to have done to deserve it?

>>You left that out."

>The cops claimed he was trying to run them over during a brawl with druglords or something.

The lessons are clear for white folks: get the heck out of Brown Town since all cats look black after dark.

Or as my streetwise black wife told me, "We are not moving anywhere that has signs saying 'This is a Drug-Free Community' because we will either have crazy Citizen Patrollers, crazy cops, or both. And one thing we know as a certainty: there ARE drugs in that community."

David said...

Per the Associated Press, Zimmerman is a white Hispanic.

"[...] 28-year-old George Zimmerman, a white Hispanic."

Link.

Anonymous said...

i live in nyc - there were a good thousand + people in Union square- mostly swpl liberals- protesting this murder - the parents were there etc, at a rally- its amazing how swiftly the left gets these angry defiant mobs- who flew her up? why the extensive media coverage on all local nyc stations (palestinan rallies there, for example rarely get any coverage)

the left is totally unconcered with justice - as is our resident poster truth, does he or they give a damn about the horrific black on white crimes? no, they are not 'useful'.

this is where 'justice' is going the left is making rabid advances to the point where they will criminalize opposition to their ideas- which is pretty much already the case in europe.

People here have brought the daily mail - i suggest you read peter hitchen's column -

Anonymous said...

Steve is absolutely correct about the New Gestapo.
My ex-wife's uncle was a lieutenant on a suburban police force who took early retirement 15 years ago. He told me he couldn't work with the guys who want to be cops in the modern age. He said he'd pulled his weapon on duty 3 times in 25 years, and there were guys doing that 3 times on 1 shift now.

Mr. Anon said...

"Beecher Asbury said...

For those interested, just click onto this story from the Daily Mail about a murder in Oklahoma. Yea, I know it's a shame I have to read about it from a UK paper.

You don't even need to read the thing. Just click the link and look at the photos. And ask yourself why this is not getting attention."

Here's another crime in Oklahoma that did not get national attention:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2011/09/murder-suspect-does-interview-hours-before-arrest/

Here's a multiple homicide in Omaha that was not national news:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wichita_Massacre

Or this one, in Knoxville:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom

However this story, you may remember, did garner national attention:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2011372410_walmart18.html

Media outlets quite clearly believe that there are certain things we should not be aware of, and other things we should.

Kylie said...

"The weapon was a 9mm which is a fairly large gun."

No, a 9mm is not a fairly large gun. It is a caliber of ammo. I shot both a 9mm MAP1 and a 9mm AR-15 at the range on Monday and I can assure you there is a big difference in their weights and sizes. They both take 9mm ammo but one is a "big gun" and one isn't. I'll leave you to guess which is which.

Either you don't have a CCW or AA has extended its horrifying tentacles even farther than I thought.

Kylie said...

"'Seems like the whole country talked about nothing else for weeks on end. There were all the marches, the petitions, the calls for justice.' [quoting me]

I didn't see you holding up any signs. Oh, Desperate Houswives was on, that's right."


So you admit you'd rather watch a TV show aimed at stupid people than keep up with the news. No surprise there. You're not one to let facts get in the way of your opinions, are you?

Kylie said...

"The lone American in our group (white) was turning green around the gills, according to him, in the States, one never, never ever draws attention to oneself from the police short of an actual crime situation."

Yes, well, that's according to him.

I have met police who have no more business in law enforcement than our resident race man has commenting on all the topics about which he's so ignorant. I have also met really good-hearted police who'd take time to check on the well-being of homeless people ("check on" not being a euphemism for "harass"), try to talk alcoholics back into rehab or AA, share food with the down-and-out, etc.

Pincher Martin said...

Truth,

You originally wrote:

""Note that it calls Zimmerman a "one-man neighborhood watch program; as in "unsanctioned" It says he was captain of absolutely nothing. In fact, he was not even A MEMBER of the neighborhood watch."

The Twin Lakes neighborhood watch group was not unsanctioned. Neighborhoods are not obligated to join USAonWatch, you moron.

Zimmerman was referred to by the community newsletter as the "captain" of the neighborhood watch group. You claim "he was not even a member of the neighborhood watch".

"Thanks for the list of "details" that I was "ignorant" of."

How about taking a look above. When you show evidence you're capable of admitting your mistakes, I'll continue your education.

europeasant said...

"Crime was pretty bad in Chicago in 1990, but it was probably worse in New York. Now, New York is a lot better, and Chicago is much worse than New York. How come?"

Actually Chicago crime is down from previous years. The vibrancy is being moved to the suburbs and guess what?

Carol said...

Well at least an AP story today identifies Zimmerman as Hispanic. Maybe it's a little backtracking, in light of the lynch mob mentality that has taken over at the FB sympathy site.

Also, it seems some demonstrators in NY think Trayvon was shot because he wore a hoodie.

europeasant said...

Your story was very easy to find on Google. You gave out way too many hints. Next time make it more challenging.

I have a few times come upon police behaving badly.

Dutch Boy said...

This just in: George Zimmerman is now being described as a "white Hispanic" in news stories.

europeasant said...

Never argue with someone who has a gun,period. Unfortunately there are people who lack common sense.

Truth said...

Since nobody comented on my link to your Great White Defendant theory, I'll just post the article from yesterday...


STARKVILLE, Mississippi (Reuters) - A white Mississippi teenager pleaded guilty on Wednesday to fatally running over a man with a truck because he was black, and received a life prison sentence for a crime the presiding judge said left "a great stain" on the southern state.

Deryl Dedmon, 19, received two concurrent life sentences for the racially motivated murder of 49-year-old James Craig Anderson, who died after being beaten and mowed down in a motel parking lot last year.

Dedmon's admission that he killed Anderson because of his race doubled the teen's penalty under the state's hate crime statute.

"I was young, I was dumb, I was ignorant," Dedmon said during his court hearing in Jackson. "I was full of hatred."

The sentencing came as the shooting death of a black teenager by a neighborhood watch captain in Florida has again put a national spotlight on the issue of members of minority groups being targeted due to the color of their skin.

Anderson, a Nissan auto worker, was alone and returning to his car before dawn on June 26 when he was confronted by a group of white teenagers in a motel parking lot.

The teens had been drinking at a birthday party and drove to Jackson specifically to harass and assault African-Americans, whom they referred to by a derogatory name, Hinds County Assistant District Attorney Scott Rogillio said.

Dedmon and others had gone to Jackson in previous weeks with the same intent, the prosecutor said.

Dedmon and at least one other person in the group punched Anderson before Dedmon deliberately ran over him with the teen's Ford F-250 truck, Rogillio said. Anderson died at the scene.

Dedmon yelled "white power" during the attack, Rogillio said. A hotel security camera captured video of the incident.

"You have admitted killing a man simply because of his race," Circuit Court Judge Jeff Weill Sr. said. "Your prejudice has brought shame upon you and placed a great stain on the state of Mississippi."

Mississippi has a long legacy of racial discrimination and was a focal point of civil rights activity during the 1960s and since. The racist Ku Klux Klan was prominent in the state for decades and remnants of the group remain.

"Know that this craven act isn't who we are," the judge said, addressing those in the courtroom. "We can say this now. Maybe there was a time when we couldn't."

Dedmon apologized to Anderson's family members, who have filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the group of white teens over the attack but asked prosecutors not to seek the death penalty for Dedmon because they oppose capital punishment.

Another teen, John Aaron Rice, has been charged with simple assault, and the investigation into the case continues on the state and federal levels, Rogillio told Reuters.

"We expect more charges coming in the near future," Rogillio said, declining to offer further details.

Rogillio said a news conference related to the investigation would be held on Thursday at the federal courthouse in Jackson. The Justice Department declined to comment.

(Additional reporting by Jeremy Pelofsky; Writing by Colleen Jenkins; Editing by Paul Thomasch and Cynthia Johnston)

Svigor said...

You quickly size the situation up. Now remember, you are a 16 year old not PHD in personality psychology you options seemingly are.

Well, he did get himself planted. So if there was a good option to be had, he didn't take it. You're big on outcomes as argument, aren't you? You know: "well, he's richer than you, so he must be right!" Well, he's deader than Zimmerman, so doesn't that mean he must've been wrong?

recall Jesse Jackson's famous admission of feeling relief when he realizes the teens following behind him are white.

FTFY. Small, but significant difference.

It's been reported that Zimmerman was carrying a Kel Tec 9mm. It's one of the smallest 9mm pistols available, which are not "fairly large" to begin with.

If we have to choose between small and large, 9mm is on the small side. 9mm is about .35 inches, so not even the diameter of a .38. It's a moderate caliber, at most. 'Course, thugs do tend to go light.

"A good point. Following the advice of "law enforcement authorities" is often a good way to get yourself killed."

Oh yes, of course, that's the aim of the police department, to get people killed.


AFAIK, the aim of the PD is to follow procedure, or words to that effect. Generally speaking, the gov't is not liable for inaction. I.e., if they leave you to rot, there's nothing you can do about it. So, we're talking about a bureaucracy that would rather leave you to rot than give you "actionable" advice. Essentially, you're on your own. Just sayin'.

Seeing as how it may cost Mr. Zimmerman 25 years of his life, I'd say it was good advice, eh, Grasshopper?

Seeing how Martin's actions got him killed, I'd say he could've used some good advice. Right?

BTW:

Steve, you have to be happy that you have so many Mexican Jews as readers.


LOL.

American in our group (white) was turning green around the gills, according to him, in the States, one never, never ever draws attention to oneself from the police short of an actual crime situation.

Sounds like he should be speaking for himself, or at most, his municipality or region, because that's balderdash. I'm not exactly Mr. Police, but I've waved cops down for non-crime situations more than once (e.g., how long can my broken-down shitbox of a ride sit on the shoulder before it's towed). That sounds like the kind of thing a thug or druggie would say.

Winifred said...

"The fatal shooting of unarmed Trayvon Martin by a neighborhood watch volunteer in Florida named George Zimmerman is a reminder that way too many people get shot in America for screwed-up reasons or for no particular reason other than adrenaline and testosterone."

I think this is mostly correct. On the other hand, we only know what we've been told.

Steve, your story is riveting and I had to walk away a couple of times as I was involved in something similar not even two months ago, but it was a truck and not a gun. And there will be no justice on this earth for the victim.

An innocent man was killed right in front of me, but before it happened, I had been following and conveying everything I saw to a 911 operator, hoping someone could stop the maniac driver; it lasted for 2-3 minutes. My intuition told me two things (at some point, it wasn't immediate): the driver was legitimately having a medical issue and secondly, he was a bad man. This nightmare drive ended when the driver careened off a shoulder for the umpteenth time and hit a man working on his car. For most of the drive, I had the sense of someone trying to gain control, but in the last 15-20 seconds, it seemed, he had mostly lost the battle.

I learned that both hunches were correct. The driver had a rap sheet for assault with a recent one at age 55; he'd been a raging jerk his entire life.

Also, like you, I saw a facebook post and comments. The son simply posted that people shouldn't be driving who had x condition. Some moron came along and chided this distraught boy. The moron had no thought for the fact that millions of people have x condition, but it very rarely causes accidents because the issues that arise are predictable coupled with the fact that most people care about the rights and safety of others. This driver/killer had lived his entire life up until then giving society the finger.

Be extra careful on the road in the years to come as narcissistic baby boomers become elderly. Keep jerks out of your life as much as possible.

Anonymous said...

In a couple of minutes they'll be lots of arguments over whether Kevin meant "white" as ethnicity or race. IMHO, it correctly refers to an ethnicity and not a race.


I don't know what that means, but Zimmerman is not white regardless of whether that means ethnicity or race.

Anonymous said...

The mainstream right is busily denying that Martin was targeted by Zimmerman because he was a black teenager in a hoodie walking through his neighborhood at night, when it's obvious that he was.


No, the mainstream right is busy pointing out that Zimmerman is not white and that the media are, as usual, lying.

Anonymous said...

I am reading the comments to the story Steve linked at Mother Jones. A few commenters have tried to point out that Zimmerman is not white, but Hispanic. The other commenters are proceeding to lecture that Hispanics are white or that Zimmerman is Spanish, etc. None of them will do what the one commenter suggested and just google for an image of Zimmerman.



The only consistent thing about liberals is their inconsistency.

Anonymous said...

Whatever the ethnic identity of the shooter, the racial dynamic arose when the white police captain of Sanford ran what can charitably be described as a half-assed investigation that neglected basic things like drug/alcohol testing Zimmerman.


Sounds like you are saying that no matter what happened, it's always the white guys fault. If the police captain had been black or Hispanic I'm sure there is a white DA to pin the blame on.

Anonymous said...

think of how rotten it is to be a law abiding young black man and still get followed by store security in department stores


If you are a law abiding black man (or black woman) and you get followed by security in stores, the people to be mad at are other black men and women, the ones who shoplift as if it's their inalienable right.

Beecher Asbury said...

Steve, here is your stinking badges clip.

Anonymous said...

White people are totally delusional that there is no such thing as racism


I think that there is such a thing as racism. I also think that racism is far, far more widespread and vicious among blacks than it is among whites.

Simon in London said...

Leaving aside the Great White Defendant angle, yes there is a huge problem in the US with random police shootings.

I'm a British guy living in London, so what would I know, right? Well I happen to have a lower class American friend in Corvallis, Oregon: http://www.corvalliscommunitypages.com/policeall.htm

And a few years ago her brother was gunned down by the police for no good reason, very much like the case of which Steve has personal experience. Since her brother was a lower-class white male, his death got even less attention than the middle class victim of Steve's experience.

I'm sure there are unjustified police shootings of blacks, still - but there are powerful interest groups standing up for them. No one in power cares about the whites who are slaughtered, often by their co-ethnics.

Anonymous said...

I have no idea who was in the right and who was in the wrong in the Zimmerman/Martin case. I do know that Zimmerman was not "white" though.

Based on the description here the decision not to prosecute the Hispanic guy seems to be at least comprehensible.


1) The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him.

2) The witness says that George Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help.

3) Police arrive and find Zimmerman bleeding on his face and the back of his head. He also has had grass stains on his back. All this confirms the story told by Zimmerman and the witness.

4) Police play the 911 tape for Trayvon Martin's father, who tells police that the voice screaming is not the voice of his son.

Simon in London said...

Truth:
"White people are totally delusional that there is no such thing as racism, where as black people are delsuional in their thinking that there is no ground for white people to believe in black stereotypes."

Wise words from Truth.

"Oh yes, of course, that's the aim of the police department, to get people killed."

Not so wise words from Truth. I have a fairly high regard for London's Metropolitan Police, with whom I work closely in the Neighbourhood Watch (I have never chased a perp, except the one who actually broke into my house) and especially the local Safer Neighbourhoods Team. But they are only human. Their primary motivation, naturally, is an easy life for the Metropolitan Police, and the minimisation of paperwork.

This does not always coincide with what would maximally preserve the life and property of the law-abiding citizens of London.

stari_momak said...

Here's some facts left out of the conventional, highly congenial to the black grievance industry, narrative.

1) It wasn't his own neighborhood, it was his father's. Thus he was a stranger to the area

2) the cops didn't actually tell Zimmerman to 'stop following' Martin. The 911 guy said "Are you following him? , Yes, "We don't need you to do that". That's not exactly a ringing command to stop following the dude.

3) Zimmerman had grass stains on the back of his shirt, and was bleeding from the back of the head and nose. This is physical evidence that corroborates his story, as do some eyewitness accounts.

4) The detectives in the case brought it to prosecutors, who doubted they could even get a manslaughter conviction.

So whether Zimmerman was stupid, racist, an amateur Barney Fife, or whatever is simply irrelevant. It's too bad the 'good kid' -- on suspension from school and at his fathers' to be 'put straight' -- was killed. But Trayvon Martin simply escalated the wrong confrontation.

Simon in London said...

"Slightly OT, but while lost on a bike-trip in England many years ago, one of the cyclists (who was English) flagged down a passing police patrol car for directions. The lone American in our group (white) was turning green around the gills, according to him, in the States, one never, never ever draws attention to oneself from the police short of an actual crime situation."

Yeah, I remember being in Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland many years ago with my fiancee. She was slightly freaking out when I approached the heavily fortified police station to ask directions to the ancestral home/conception place of US President Andrew Jackson from a friendly local RUC officer.

Bill said...

Shorter Steve: Cops are lying thugs; therefore, only they should have guns.

jody said...

it's amazing how the television news can control the national dialogue by picking 1 local story out of hundreds and giving it wall to wall coverage.

you guys are all definitely being tricked into thinking this is some big deal. look at what the liberals in control of most of the news networks have provoked you into. arguing among yourselves vigorously about the specific details of some completely minor shooting.

in reality, somebody is killed under dubious circumstances in the US every single day. it happens so often that 99.9% of it MUST be ignored, or you'd never get through a 24 hour national news cycle which had time to cover actual news.

law enforcement handles it, and often it merits nothing more than a 1 day mention on the local television news network. it sucks when people get killed, nobody is looking for that to happen, but this ain't news.

Anonymous said...

Some of the commenters here are comfortable analyzing this case based in part on likelihoods gained from "profiling." I am comfortable with profiling too, but some of you are doing it in a lazy clumsy way:

"Black males are extremely arrogant and hostile."

"He may have got in the first blow (the notorious black sucker punch)."

"black teenager in hoodie= scary threat for many people of all races"

"sticking up for black felons" [I don't think the kids was a felon.]

"The voice isn't that of a teenager or a black person. "

While these commenters exaggerate what can be deduced based on race, they ignore other profiling information, such as the fact that Zimmerman was once charged with battery of an officer and resisting arrest, that he has a history of overreacting to suspicious-looking people (he called 911 46 times since' 01), and that he carries a handgun. Shouldn't the facts that Zimmerman is a person with a history of reckless violence and was running around at night with a gun make us more suspicious of him than we should be of the black teenager without a criminal record?
-Morgan C

Anonymous said...

truth said, "Since nobody comented on my link to your Great White Defendant theory, I'll just post the article from yesterday..."

And you never commented on the story from the Daily Mail about the Oklahoma couple being attacked. If you want to turn this into a tit-for-tat competition where you link a white-on-black crime story for each black-on-white crime story that occurs, good luck. You will be on the losing end of that since interracial crime is pretty much a one direction thing. Of course losing would only refer to you not being able to match story for story. If your score card depends on which side is beating the other, then I'd guess you'd be on the winning side.

JSM said...

"White people are totally delusional that there is no such thing as racism"

Speaking for White people, since I am one, it would be a whole heckuva lot easier to believe that Blacks in America today suffer much from this vague thing called racism if there were even a small, say, 1%, incidence of Blacks leaving America to move to Black-majority countries.

***After all, huge numbers of Whites who have been victimized by their Black neighbors have left fled, often selling their homes at a loss; in fact, so significant is the phenomenon it's been given a name: White Flight. And this phenomenon continues to this day; You people even complain about it.

When will we start seeing the equivalent Black Flight to Black-majority, Black-run countries that ought to be taking place, if White racism is so unbearable?

Anonymous said...

Shouldn't the facts that Zimmerman is a person with a history of reckless violence and was running around at night with a gun make us more suspicious of him than we should be of the black teenager without a criminal record?


I'm not suspicious of anybody at this point.

Except the media, who appear to be up to their usual routine of trying to hang the "white guy" by racially attacking the "black kid". In spite of the fact that the white guy in question isn't white! The fact that the media get this wrong makes me wonder how much else they say can be believed.

SF said...

The LA case has an eery resemblance to Wambaugh's novel, The Choirboys," where a disturbed Vietnam vet cop has a flashback and shoots a homosexual kid by mistake. Wambaugh was an LAPD cop. Difference was that the choirboys scene was an off-duty drinking party in a park, and in those days, the parents of a homosexual were more willing to settle for funeral costs and regrets.

Truth said...

"The truth is that the presence of a large number of blacks is devastating to white communities. [Do you disagree, Truth?]"

The presence of a small number of whites is devastating to black communities, that's why we're here. It also tended to devastate NATIVE American communities.

Pincher Martin said...

Morgan C,

"While these commenters exaggerate what can be deduced based on race, they ignore other profiling information, such as the fact that Zimmerman was once charged with battery of an officer and resisting arrest, that he has a history of overreacting to suspicious-looking people (he called 911 46 times since' 01), and that he carries a handgun. Shouldn't the facts that Zimmerman is a person with a history of reckless violence and was running around at night with a gun make us more suspicious of him than we should be of the black teenager without a criminal record?"

You're acting as if these details about Zimmerman have been suppressed by the media. To the contrary, they've been front and center in the public debate. What's lacking is some perspective on the background of the boy and his family, as well as the typical background of the young men living in this marginal gated neighborhood.

Truth said...

"Either you don't have a CCW or AA has extended its horrifying tentacles even farther than I thought"

Oh, you're talking to me again, well that's nice.

But I'll ask the question again in a simpler manner:

Was the damn gun small enough so that he could put it in his pants pocket. That's it, nothing more. If he had a 3-shot .22 Derringer, it would be.

Truth said...

"So you admit you'd rather watch a TV show aimed at stupid people than keep up with the news. No surprise there. You're not one to let facts get in the way of your opinions, are you?"

No, we'll try it again:

You asked where all of the demonstrators were for Christian Channon; I explained, in a roundabout sort of way, that someone, A LIVING, BREATHING PERSON is responsible for all demonstrations. As far as I can tell, you are a living-breathing person, so where is YOUR responsibility in this?

Truth said...

"Well, he did get himself planted. So if there was a good option to be had, he didn't take it. You're big on outcomes as argument, aren't you? You know: "well, he's richer than you, so he must be right!" Well, he's deader than Zimmerman, so doesn't that mean he must've been wrong?"

I guess this is national "OK, we'll try this again" day.


I never said that he made the right decision, I said that he made a logical and reasonable decision from the mindset of a teenage boy. There really is no right decision when a large, angry, creepy man is following you and confronts you with a gun. You take your chances.

Now, I understand Svigor, believe me, I understand, you are a Pacifist. If someone smacks you on the cheek you will turn the other cheek so that he can smack that one too. I get it. I used to by flowers from you guys in Airports before the whole gulf war security increase.

I like birkenstocks and tie-die also, I'm not much of a fan of Kumbaya, but hey, I don't criticize you guys, to each his own.

David said...

>Zimmerman was once charged with battery of an officer and resisting arrest, [...] he has a history of overreacting to suspicious-looking people (he called 911 46 times since' 01), and [...] he carries a handgun. Shouldn't [these facts and his] running around at night with a gun make us more suspicious of him than we should be of the black teenager without a criminal record?<

Not necessarily. I know two men in their 70s who were arrested in their small town for "threats." They made no threats - the arrests were made on the basis of a malicious report by a disgrunted customer. Nevertheless, they were put in the local jail (in wrist and ankle cuffs) until they made bail. Often nowadays, "battery of an officer" is charge-stacking: it includes accidentally touching an officer, or even (in some cases) the officer's accidentally touching you. I don't put all my stock into anyone's alleged "criminal history" now, including those of black youths.

Zimmerman called 911 46 times in 11 years. Guess what? Some street corners get 100+ calls every year (to either 911 or the generic line). Strictly speaking, this isn't evidence that he's weird; it may just as well be evidence that the neighborhood is going to pieces. (Many hoods have gone to pieces in the last x decades.)

As to "running around with a gun at night," be real. In a conceal-carry state plenty of people are "running around with a gun at night." Makes sense to, these days. Also, if your mission (as you see it) is to question strange sketchy neighborhood loiterers at night, isn't it smart to be armed?

Z was foolhardy for chasing Martin. That is that only fault in him that I think we can agree on. A Neighborhood Watch is supposed to be just that - "watch", not confront. The cops are supposed to do the confronting in non-emergency situations.

Z, described today by the Associated Press as a "white Hispanic" (...yeah...), let his hot blood get the better of him, the situation got out of hand, and now there is a corpse. Hopefully Z is learning his lesson now. Hopefully many other people are learning a lesson, too.

Truth said...

"AFAIK, the aim of the PD is to follow procedure, or words to that effect."

Yes, and why is it that they established that procedure in the first place? Well, I'll tell you why, Svigolini, because a team of psychologists, economists, and criminal justice PHDs has established that THAT IS THE BEST PATH TO A POSITIVE OUTCOME.


Seeing as how it may cost Mr. Zimmerman 25 years of his life, I'd say it was good advice, eh, Grasshopper?

Seeing how Martin's actions got him killed, I'd say he could've used some good advice. Right?

Certainly, he could have taken out his smartphone and googled, "what to do, when a large creepy man with a gun is chasing you."


AFAIK, the aim of the PD is to follow procedure, or words to that effect. Generally speaking, the gov't is not liable for inaction. I.e., if they leave you to rot, there's nothing you can do about it. So, we're talking about a bureaucracy that would rather leave you to rot than give you "actionable" advice. Essentially, you're on your own. Just sayin'.

Seeing as how it may cost Mr. Zimmerman 25 years of his life, I'd say it was good advice, eh, Grasshopper?

Seeing how Martin's actions got him killed, I'd say he could've used some good advice. Right?

Anonymous said...

Why do liberals in the media accept that former New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson is Hispanic despite his surname, but can't make the same connection with George Zimmerman?

Truth said...

"Zimmerman was referred to by the community newsletter as the "captain" of the neighborhood watch group. You claim "he was not even a member of the neighborhood watch"."

Let me give you a little hint here, Sport:

It ain't particularly hard to be captain of an unofficial team of one.

I was named Intergalactic Major Domo of the Setting Googballs Straight on Sailer's Website team just last night.

We had a really great banquet, you should have come.

Truth said...

"I learned that both hunches were correct. The driver had a rap sheet for assault with a recent one at age 55; he'd been a raging jerk his entire life."

I think you forgot to mention his race.

T. O . Meehan said...

While it's endlessly fascinating to play detective in the Zimmerman matter, that shouldn't blind us to what's going on behind the scenes. The left's clear objective is the repeal of the Castle Doctrine law, a law enacted by Floridians fed up with carjackings, mugging and home invasions. When Anderson Cooper and Jeffery Toobin or Andrea Mitchell browbeat the Florida Representative who authored the law you know what the game is all about.

The right to carry a weapon and to use it in self defense is a very old right with a long history in America. It has always involved a degree of personal responsibility. Zimmerman will face a grand jury enquiry. If found to have acted illegally he will be judged.

The left's agenda is more sinister. They want a legal regime in which white citizens confronted by black criminals react much as Canadians approached by Polar Bears. Always err on the side of the endangered species. And blacks in liberal eyes are always the protected, endangered species.

This didn't work in the past, hence the change in the law. The tax payers of Florida, who are mostly white and hispanic, had enough. Liberals who don't approve can always just stay in New York.

Anonymous said...

The presence of a small number of whites is devastating to black communities, that's why we're here. It also tended to devastate NATIVE American communities.

Analogies, how do they work?

Analogy tests are among the highest correlates with IQ, which is probably why they removed them from the SAT and why you can't apply them properly.

Truth said...

"1) It wasn't his own neighborhood, it was his father's. Thus he was a stranger to the area"

And I guess it was the first time he had been to his father's house?

"2) the cops didn't actually tell Zimmerman to 'stop following' Martin. The 911 guy said "Are you following him? , Yes, "We don't need you to do that". That's not exactly a ringing command to stop following the dude."

911 Operators are not authorized to give ringing commands. His intention was to stop a fake cop from escalating a situation from bad to worse. In retrospect the operator was right.



"3) Zimmerman had grass stains on the back of his shirt, and was bleeding from the back of the head and nose. This is physical evidence that corroborates his story, as do some eyewitness accounts."

Yes, he got his ass kicked by a teenager who was a little more than half his weight. This much has been established. Again, is it unreasonable that a the fight-or flight response would kick in for a teenager who is being followed by a large, creepy man with a gun?

4) The detectives in the case brought it to prosecutors, who doubted they could even get a manslaughter conviction.

So whether Zimmerman was stupid, racist, an amateur Barney Fife, or whatever is simply irrelevant. It's too bad the 'good kid' -- on suspension from school and at his fathers' to be 'put straight' -- was killed.

Well your heartfelt sympathy for grieving parents there is admirable.

"But Trayvon Martin simply escalated the wrong confrontation."

There was no "confrontation" until a large, creepy man with a gun cornered him.

Truth said...

" it's amazing how the television news can control the national dialogue by picking 1 local story out of hundreds and giving it wall to wall coverage."

That is the smartest thing you have ever written here, Jody. Good job.

Truth said...

"Zimmerman was once charged with battery of an officer and resisting arrest, that he has a history of overreacting to suspicious-looking people (he called 911 46 times since' 01), and that he carries a handgun. Shouldn't the facts that Zimmerman is a person with a history of reckless violence and was running around at night with a gun make us more suspicious of him than we should be of the black teenager without a criminal record?"

LOL! 16 posters just mumbled "N- Lover" under their breaths.

Truth said...

"Speaking for White people, since I am one, it would be a whole heckuva lot easier to believe that Blacks in America today suffer much from this vague thing called racism if there were even a small, say, 1%, incidence of Blacks leaving America to move to Black-majority countries."

There are 683,000 people in North Dakota, about 7,000 of them are black. The answer to your question is; "the same reason Svigor complains about blacks and lives in a city where they make up 50% of the population instead of moving to North Dakota."

Truth said...

"Analogies, how do they work?"

What did Sitting Bull's great, great, great, great grandfather say to Geronimo's when the Mayflower pulled into Plymouth Rock?


"Uh oh, there goes the neighborhood."

Anonymous said...

Maybe the people here would be a little less enthusiastic about Florida's Stand Your Ground law if they knew it let a retired black bus driver blow away an unarmed white Air Force veteran during an argument over skateboarding in a park. It's a shitty law that lets meatheads with guns like Zimmerman or the bus driver escalate petty situations to lethal force, then escape criminal charges.

Pincher Martin said...

Truthiness,

"Let me give you a little hint here, Sport:

It ain't particularly hard to be captain of an unofficial team of one."


There is no official or unofficial team, dufus. A neighborhood doesn't need its watch sanctioned by some government or nongovernmental agency. They can make their own neighborhood watch and not care one whit what you or anyone else outside the community thinks. That's the wonderful thing about volunteer local organizations.

Zimmerman's neighborhood had one watch group and he was the recognized "captain" of it, as the community newsletter described him.

So you were wrong when you said he wasn't even a member of the neighborhood watch.

"I was named Intergalactic Major Domo of the Setting Googballs Straight on Sailer's Website team just last night. '

"We had a really great banquet, you should have come."


Great analogy, Major Truthiness, except that this "Sailer website team" doesn't give you the objective benefit of a newsletter or other personal recommendations by neighbors, both of which Zimmerman had.

So that means you are pretty much out on the Intergalactic sandbar by yourself when making your claims, which shouldn't come as much of a surprise to anyone here.

Anonymous said...

Steve, you have to be happy that you have so many Mexican Jews as readers.

Truth pretends to be some impartial person, but here tries to manipulate and steer the emotions and prejudices of the readers in a direction favorable to his ethnic nepotism and interests.

JW Ogden said...

I was present when a cop purposefully hit a thug kid I knew with his car, sending the kid sprawling but not injured. A kid a knew and went to high school with died in policy custody, supposedly from falling down a flight of stairs, no one that I knew believed that story. Once I was driving home from a party where the police stopped everyone at the sight of an accident and a cop tapped me on the chin hard enough to cause some pain with a big flashlight. I and my brother were once harassed on the URI campus for 30 minutes by a young Cop he said because their was a story of guys fitting our description breaking into rooms on campus.
Now if I and my friends and acquaintances was black I would assume that thus all happened because I was black. It really happened because I was a young male.

Anonymous said...

OK, so the zebra killers were "assigning and weighing things proportionally."

No.

Zimmerman was in his own neighborhood and turf and had a much better case of judging and weighing probabilities (ratios) that the black kid was a threat.

The "Zebra murders" were fourteen execution style murders and eight assaults of people that the murderers aggressively drove around and sought out.

Anonymous said...

Let me give you a little hint here, Sport:

It ain't particularly hard to be captain of an unofficial team of one.

I was named Intergalactic Major Domo of the Setting Googballs Straight on Sailer's Website team just last night.

We had a really great banquet, you should have come.


You're just repeatedly advertising your stupidity by misusing analogies.

If he's acknowledged as the captain by the community organization, which is staffed and run by multiple members who are active in neighborhood affairs, then it isn't the case that this guy just appointed himself the captain and nobody knew or cared about it.

Anonymous said...

Maybe the people here would be a little less enthusiastic about Florida's Stand Your Ground law if they knew it let a retired black bus driver blow away an unarmed white Air Force veteran during an argument over skateboarding in a park. It's a shitty law that lets meatheads with guns like Zimmerman or the bus driver escalate petty situations to lethal force, then escape criminal charges.

Or maybe the people here just know how probability and statistics work?

Anonymous said...

There really is no right decision when a large, angry, creepy man is following you and confronts you with a gun. You take your chances.


Now, I understand Svigor, believe me, I understand, you are a Pacifist. If someone smacks you on the cheek you will turn the other cheek so that he can smack that one too.



There is exactly zero evidence that Zimmerman "confronted Marin with a gun", or that he smacked Martin in the face or anywhere else.

josh said...

"I dont believe in Zimmerman."-John Lennon.But I do.

Truth said...

cap·tain   [kap-tuhn, -tin] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person who is at the head of or in authority over others; chief; leader.
2.
an officer ranking in most armies above a first lieutenant and below a major.
3.
an officer in the U.S. Navy ranking above a commander and below a rear admiral or a commodore.
4.
a military leader.
5.
an officer in the police department, ranking above a lieutenant and usually below an inspector.

Now, I know you're the one with the three-digit IQ here, chief, but I think it might be difficult for someone to be "captain" of a one-man outfit.

Truth said...

"Great analogy, Major Truthiness, except that this "Sailer website team" doesn't give you the objective benefit of a newsletter or other personal recommendations by neighbors, both of which Zimmerman had. "

I get personal recommendations by my "virtual neighbors" here at the site, I would estimate, twice a month.

Truth said...

"Truth pretends to be some impartial person, but here tries to manipulate and steer the emotions and prejudices of the readers in a direction favorable to his ethnic nepotism and interests"

....And the police have Truth in handcuffs...

Freddie: So Truth's motivation is to manipulate and steer the emotions and prejudices of the readers in a direction favorable to his ethnic neoptism and interests...

Daphne: ...and to do this, he pretends to be some impartial person...

Velma: ...But what he's really hoping for is to make IStevers like blacks and vote for Barrack Obama...

Shaggy: ...Let's rip of Mr. Truth's mask and see who he really is....

CRRRRAAAAAACCCHHH>

Chorus: ....MOOOOR-IS DEEEEEEEZ?!?!?!?

Me: ...And I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!

Truth said...

"The "Zebra murders" were fourteen execution style murders and eight assaults of people that the murderers aggressively drove around and sought out."

So you're saying they weren't racist?

Truth said...

"There is exactly zero evidence that Zimmerman "confronted Marin with a gun",


Why yes there is, a the bullet from Zimmerman's gun in Martin's body.

"...or that he smacked Martin in the face or anywhere else."

Svigor, help your boy out.

Pincher Martin said...

Major Truthiness,

"Now, I know you're the one with the three-digit IQ here, chief, but I think it might be difficult for someone to be "captain" of a one-man outfit."

Zimmerman was involved with his neighborhood watch group for eight years, so the current size of the group doesn't tell you its size when the newsletter came out.

I suspect that even someone with a double-digit IQ can grasp that concept without running to their online dictionary.

That's just a helpful hint there, Sport, if you do ever want to pass as someone with a three-digit IQ.

*****

"I get personal recommendations by my "virtual neighbors" here at the site, I would estimate, twice a month."

Send them along to me, Meathead, and I'll give you a great recommendation, too.

Kylie said...

"If the (so called) anti-white press will ignore the Great white defendant you can always count on Truth!"

Deryl Dedmon, deserves the death penalty, not life in prison. As do the defendants in the Knoxville case.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for seeing me, Mr.M.
"I'm always here"
The re-election isn't a given, so...
"No, bad numbers plus scandals aren't positives"
What must be done,then?
"Deflection and emphasizing the Negative"
What? I'm confused...
"Find a 'Hate Crime' anywhere and amplify until November. And beyond as needed, of course. You'll then receive the 'Contrition Vote', thereby victory"
Except, Mr. M, that requires a collaborating Media, and a mallable electorate to succeed.
"So? Where's the problem?"

greenrivervalleyman said...

Truth, I like you and look forward to your comments. You keep us HBD'ers honest when we overreach, and even when we're right your ripostes are at least witty. Have no idea if you're the part-black, New Mexican former-journalist you let on as being, but I appreciate your intelligent advocacy for the other side.

When I was younger and unmarried I lived in a somewhat downscale condominium complex. Mostly working-class/lower-middle class whites, some poor retirees. One of the unit owners was Roger, a retired Hispanic airport worker. Though somewhat of a sad-sack, we all appreciated him since he was basically the development superintendent- did a lot of clean-up and maintenance work for free that made life there a bit more bearable (to give you an idea of the petty nuisances and misdemeanors that went on there- a vehicle involved in a hit-and-run used our parking lot to hide out from the police in). Yet also prone to Keystone Cop-like incompetency. One of the retirees slipped and broke her hip; found weeks later dead in her apartment, face eaten by her cats (ok, last part I made up). Would have been found sooner, except Roger "helpfully" cleaned up the pile of newspapers gathering on her front porch that would have let people know something was wrong.

Anyway, George Zimmerman reminds me of Roger- basically a sad case trying to make his like a bit less gloomy by helping the people around him. I don't know how much he was justified in the shooting, but from the evidence I can't say I really believe he was ever in fear for his life. However, I don't think that justifies jail if we all know it to be an inevitability that he'll be killed or at least assaulted while serving his time there.

So how about it, Sport, let's write this script together and make it worthy of Sundance. "White"-on-black shooting. Activist mobs calling for blood. Several witnesses report a boy crying right before the gun went off. Defendant admits to nothing, but our brilliant SWPL public defender (Jodie Foster in an Oscar worthy return) finally gets the sad sack shooter to admit he followed the boy, got jumped and beaten up, fired the gun in panic, and then covered up the exonerating altercation in order not to admit to family and friends he got beaten up by a teenager. Starts weeping on the stand like a frightened little boy. Cut to court room as the jury foreman reads the unanimous sentence- "Guilty, your honor." In the civil suit. Our sad Dirty Harry wannabee must now pay a large portion of all future wages to the family of the deceased for the rest of his life. Audience applause.

Tonic said...

So, how many regular murders have taken place since this Zimmerman thing happened? Hundreds? Why so much focus on this one case? Would it have been more palatable if Zimmerman was a thug who shot the kid for money?

Truth said...

"Deryl Dedmon, deserves the death penalty, not life in prison. As do the defendants in the Knoxville case."

Well that's quite fair of you, Kylie. In any event, while I have your attention, here's another statement/question:

If there is as huge a rush to find the G.W.D as Steve has pointed out numerous times, why have we not heard of this case?

The convicted is quite white, quite young and quite good looking.

Truth said...

"So how about it, Sport, let's write this script together and make it worthy of Sundance."

That's a good idea, you're probably going to have to move here though, I don't do much snow, or huge cities.

Here is something you folks should find quite interesting, from an analysis purpose. The posted below are actual text messages I have received from my best friend, a successful criminal defense attorney in L.A. I have made, roughly, the same arguments vis-a-vis Zimmerman with him, that I have here:

"No the OPD and prosecutor are dragging their feet because the vic is black. Black vic/white perp always equals less prosecution than white vic/black perp, stats prove it everyday, but you won't believe that until Ron Paul says it is so. Blacks can't be subject to discrimination, whites do nothing to oppress black people, society is fair, whites are actually the oppressed, blah, blah, blah, at least Larry Elder gets paid to tote white foks' water."

"I heard choice language from you yesterday, e.g., essentially, a black person can be subject to homicide without the murderer suffering punishment because so many blacks kill other blacks. There is no discrimination in America against black people. Whites have a legitimate gripe, but blacks do not-about anything. I've been an equal opportunity offender. Anyway, that's last thing I'm gonna write about the Martin shooting, race, equality, et al with you. You are blind to thee truth and feel the same about me."

"Basically it's what I've heard from you over the years. I've never known you to call out any discrimination suffered by blacks. I have been privileged to many accounts of white suffering on the other hand. How is that Peyton Hillis campaign going?"

"I've had a gun stuck in my face, by a black man. The failure of one black person (who does not do what he's supposed to do) does not subject the next one to carte blanche loss of franchisement. But go on and bang drum for the Peyton Hillis and others similarly oppressed. I know good black people who have to fight the battle against the dregs of black society who try to ruin their lives on a daily basis. Does not mean that those black people lose their rights elsewhere. Perhaps, it is you who should live in the inner city so that you may learn that black people are individuals and not a monolith. I don't know about "poor black people being lucrative", however, I know that it is lucrative to practice civil rights law on behalf of anyone whose rights have been infringed. But again, you take liberty with generalizations; i.e., the rallies against black on black violence occur often. You should go to one."

I respond letting him know about our conversation here:

"Here's a chatroom in which we are having a discussion vis-a-vis the Zimmerman case. Of course I am a sellout to you, and an anti-white n- to them, a bruva just can't win by being honest.

I am "Truth" you can read my comments regarding the case here.

http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=9430835&postID=1663226272268028645&page=1&token=1332389617749

He responds:

"Man I don't want to hear what some racist ass kkkrakkkas have to say. They're ignorant, inbred, hateful bastards."

Now here's what I find interesting; I make, roughly the same comments with two audiences; for those comments, I am considered and Uncle Tom by one, and Malcolm X by the other. What say you?

In my opinion, Ayn Rand got it right:

"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."

Pincher Martin said...

greenrivervalleyman,

"Anyway, George Zimmerman reminds me of Roger- basically a sad case trying to make his like a bit less gloomy by helping the people around him. I don't know how much he was justified in the shooting, but from the evidence I can't say I really believe he was ever in fear for his life."

How could you possibly make that determination?

Are you not aware that the police officer who arrived at the scene and took Zimmerman's statement said he had wet grass stains on his back, a bloody nose, and blood on the back of his head? The 911 calls from the area also said two men [Zimmerman and Martin] were "wrestling" [their words, not mine], and that there had been cries of "help, help" (which Zimmerman claims was him -- a claim disputed by the victim's family) before the shot was fired.

So how do you make that determination?

Kylie said...

"Well that's quite fair of you, Kylie."

I see criminals in terms of crime, not race. I don't expect you to believe that or to understand it so spare me any snappy comeback[s].

"In any event, while I have your attention, here's another statement/question:

If there is as huge a rush to find the G.W.D as Steve has pointed out numerous times, why have we not heard of this case?"


I don't happen to agree with Steve that there is such a rush. And obviously we've heard of this case or we wouldn't be discussing it.

By the way, if it makes you feel any better, I just googled 'channon christian and christopher newsom murders' and got 29,000 hits but when I googled 'james byrd dragging death, I got 57,000 hits.

So the 2007 torture/murders of two white kids by blacks got a little more than half the number of hits of the 1998 torture/murder of one black guy by whites.

"The convicted is quite white, quite young and quite good looking."

Good-looking? Sure, if you like your white guys just a little on the trashy side. He's about a good-looking as Zimmerman is white.

Anonymous said...

So, how many regular murders have taken place since this Zimmerman thing happened? Hundreds? Why so much focus on this one case? Would it have been more palatable if Zimmerman was a thug who shot the kid for money?

According to the survey "Highlights from 20 Years of Surveying Crime Victims", published in 1993, of the 1.3 million violent crimes that are interracial, 75% involve white victims and black offenders. So around 1 million per year. That means in the past week since this story has been in the news, there have been around 20,000 violent crimes against whites committed by blacks.

Anonymous said...

"The Race War Of Black Against White"
by Paul Sheehan
The Sydney Morning Herald
Australia, 20 May 1995

http://richardboyden.com/Black%20On%20White%20Hate%20Crime%20Statistics.htm

"The longest war America has ever fought is the Dirty War, and it is not over. It has lasted 30 years so far and claimed more than 25 million victims. It has cost almost as many lives as the Vietnam War. It determined the result of last year's congressional election.

Yet the American news media do not want to talk about the Dirty War, which remains between the lines and unreported. In fact, to even suggest that the war exists is to be discredited. So let's start suggesting, immediately.

No matter how crime figures are massaged by those who want to acknowledge or dispute the existence of a Dirty War, there is nothing ambiguous about what the official statistics portray: for the past 30 years a large segment of black America has waged a war of violent retribution against white America.

And the problem is getting worse, not better. In the past 20 years, violent crime has increased more than four times faster than the population. Young blacks (under 18) are more violent than previous generations and are 12 times more likely to be arrested for murder than young whites.

Nearly all the following figures, which speak for themselves, have not been reported in America...."

Anonymous said...

It's been 3 and a half weeks since Trayvon Martin died.

Since there are around 1 million violent crimes by blacks against whites per year, that means there have been about 70,000 violent crimes by blacks against whites since Martin died.

Anonymous said...

How do we know Zimmerman didn't initiate the assault and wasn't getting his butt handed to him immediately before shooting the kid?

Anonymous said...

"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."

And you are desperate.

Anonymous said...

There have been some reports saying that Zimmerman called the police 46 times in 1 year. This is false. The 46 calls to police came over the course of 11 years.

Given the level of crime in the area, an average of four calls per year for a neighborhood watchman captain does not seem to be an inordinate amount at all. (The website Crimemapping.com lists 282 crimes within a mile of the site of the shooting within the last six months, including three burglaries within the gated community itself.)

Pincher Martin said...

Anonymous writes:

"How do we know Zimmerman didn't initiate the assault and wasn't getting his butt handed to him immediately before shooting the kid?"

We don't. Not unless one of the witnesses looked out of their window in time to see who initiated physical contact.

But you can't convict a man based on what you don't know. So if no one saw who started the fight, then you just have to look at the evidence which is available and see if anything contradicts Zimmerman's statement. If not, he's a free man.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Why do liberals in the media accept that former New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson is Hispanic despite his surname, but can't make the same connection with George Zimmerman**********************

Because being a guv is a good thing and NAMS are only allowed to be mentioned by the MSM when they do good things, and shooting an innocent kid who is a minority is a bad thing and the MSM can only allow whites to do bad things to minorities.

Great point you make.

Anonymous said...

I've never understood why Steve mollycoddles "Truth". By which I mean posting all of his comments, but not posting rebuttals to them.

Maya said...

Truth said:
"Hey, you guys know how much I love you. If the (so called) anti-white press will ignore the Great white defendant you can always count on Truth!"

Trurh, you're right! You found one! I've come up with a couple of theories as to why this isn't on all front pages... 1. The inbred was underage when it happened, and our culture doesn't draw much satisfaction from punishing "child" criminals. They just make us sad. 2. Everyone's long accepted that Mississippi's population consists solely of illiterate racists, elderly black blues musicians, and nothing but. People want a white on black murder they could picture within driving distance of their own community, and not where they already assume such things happen everyday. 3. It was too easy. The kid confessed to killing the guy specifically because of his race causing his jail sentence to double. Is he retarded or did they black mail him with medieval torture? Anyway, it's more fun to insist that the motive was race when the perp swears it wasn't.

Maya said...

As someone who's been overpowered by chocolate cravings during college allnighters on more than several occasions, I can't think of anything creepier than being followed by a slow moving vehicle driven by a guy like Zimmerman as I walk the Hershey's bars back to my math homework, in the middle of the night.

Maya said...

"Lastly, let's be serious: who'd prefer a George Zimmerman in their neighborhood to a Trayvon Martin? Answers itself doesn't it."

I dunno... Two troubled young men, both with a history of screwing up and disrespect for authority. Can't I opt out of choosing between those to, and live among the type of people who consider it normal to have never been suspended or arrested? You know, those guys who play computer games, go on bike rides and such?

Pincher Martin said...

Maya,

"As someone who's been overpowered by chocolate cravings during college allnighters on more than several occasions, I can't think of anything creepier than being followed by a slow moving vehicle driven by a guy like Zimmerman as I walk the Hershey's bars back to my math homework, in the middle of the night."

Did you forget this all happened in a gated community?

I live in a gated community. We have private security guards. They're paid to accost complete strangers and ask them what they're doing in the neighborhood. They're not armed, but they will follow you if you don't answer them, and they will call the cops to make sure you leave. They even have spotlights on their vehicles to follow people in the dark who try to escape into the woods or onto the golf course.

It seems Zimmerman's problem is that he was a proud property owner in a marginal gated community -- one that wasn't wealthy enough to hire its own security and had to make do with volunteers. It also happened to be located in the middle of a bad area that allowed outsiders to walk in from the surrounding communities and burgle what they could.

There's a class element here. Poor Zimmerman wasn't the kind of guy who could afford to live in an upscale gated community. He was a marginal guy in a marginal neighborhood. Nevertheless, he took pride in his neighborhood and found a calling protecting his fellow homeowners.

And what the hell is wrong with that?

Pincher Martin said...

Anonymous writes,

"I've never understood why Steve mollycoddles "Truth". By which I mean posting all of his comments, but not posting rebuttals to them."

Steve has enough on his plate. Why don't you argue with Major Truthiness? It's not like he's all that sharp and requires a special effort by the blog host to take down. He's just your typical energetic internet troll.

Maya said...

Pincher Martin said:
"Did you forget this all happened in a gated community?

I live in a gated community. We have private security guards. They're paid to accost complete strangers and ask them what they're doing in the neighborhood."

I've never been to a gated community. Am I correct in assuming that one can tell a security car from that of some serial killer by special marks or lights?

If Zimmerman didn't appear to be security (and if people being followed knew that there is no security patrol in the community), then anyone would be reasonable to freak out at Zimmerman's behavior.

Pincher Martin said...

Maya,

"I've never been to a gated community. Am I correct in assuming that one can tell a security car from that of some serial killer by special marks or lights?"

Of course. The better the gated community, the better quality the security service. But just because a neighborhood can't afford private security with the fancy uniforms and the cars with decals on the side doesn't mean it doesn't have the legal right to handle security in a more economical and ad hoc manner.

And more than a couple of serial killers have been known for their penchant to dress up like authority figures, so don't be fooled by the cheap uniform.

"If Zimmerman didn't appear to be security (and if people being followed knew that there is no security patrol in the community), then anyone would be reasonable to freak out at Zimmerman's behavior."

Probably. Although someone in a car at night in a gated community is most likely a resident. How else would they get in?

Zimmerman should have identified himself to Martin as the neighborhood watch. If he didn't, then he made a serious error in judgment. But an error in judgment is not a crime.

Truth said...

"I've never understood why Steve mollycoddles "Truth". By which I mean posting all of his comments, but not posting rebuttals to them."

But he doesn't; since 2007 I've made an average of 67 entries per thread.

Conatus said...

Ask yourselves if when you walk down the street in a city and three black youths are walking your way, ask yourself whether or not they delight in the intimidation factor of their reputations as impulsive violent people which precedes them as they stroll down the sidewalk, eye f**king you.
They dare you to look their way but we are well trained and keep our eyes down.

Even middle class black youths cultivate that gangster, nothing-to-lose, wanna-fuck-with-me? demeanor or the street Black males are extremely brittle personalities. They have been taught by our media to see racism everywhere and if you make eye contact for too long...then that is racist.
Look down white person!!!
How dare you make eye contact!!

I think that is what a 'duty to retreat' use of deadly force creates in its resident population: an eyes down, intimidated population who is easily cowed by faux gangsta strutting.
So I think one of the effects of the stand your ground doctrine is to eliminate the intimidation factor. In a duty to retreat jurisdiction the thug always has the upper hand. You can't do anything because you are always legally required to walk away so the intimidation factor is huge. Over time the duty to retreat doctrine creates a cowed, Eloi population well trained in submissive behavior.
There is a wide swath of psyche street behavior that is affected by these legal doctrines concerning the use of deadly force.
But I think the stand your ground doctrine restores dignity to the bourgoisie, you too can say 'F**k You,' just like Walter White on Breaking Bad. Otherwise the criminal wannabe can intimidate with no consequences.

I think this cop wannabe never should have gotten out of his car but I am not at all sure the kid was blameless. Black males cultivate that intimidating reputation.

But you won't hear anything but 'white racism' for the next week because our media is all about keeping white people looking down at the sidewalk.

europeasant said...

According to one site there approximately 15,000 murders committed in 2010. Down by quite a bit from the early 1990's. That translates to about 40 murders per day. Heck Chicago has close to 2 murders per day and the shooting numbers are out of this world.If there was a news outlet that only reported murders in the USA than they would be kept quite busy.Thank goodness that the vibrant community is being exported out to the surrounding areas so that they too can enjoy the benefits of diversity.

David said...

>There was no "confrontation" until a large, creepy man with a gun cornered him.<

This is probably the key disagreement. From my perspective, if you are a stranger skulking around in the neighborhood, and you meet the profile (black youth), you deserve to be questioned. From the Martin fan's perspective, you don't deserve to be questioned. It may be a class thing as well as a race thing. Maya seems to be having this difficulty as well: "I've never been to a gated community. Am I correct in assuming that one can tell a security car from that of some serial killer[?]"

See, in a gated community, or in any middle-class neighborhood of private homes, walking through other people's yards at night or just skulking around in the dark, period, is regarded (if you are a stranger, someone who is not familiar) as threatening. That just isn't the way you behave there.

If, as a stranger, you walk down the street downtown in the city, no one really sees. Or at least really cares.

But if, as a stranger, you walk down the street in a private middle-class neighborhood, you are being watched. More than one pair of concerned eyes is on you from the moment you appear until the moment you disappear. Everything you do is being made note of.

I don't think people understand this basic point.

If you are an unfamiliar person in my neighborhood, you had better have business there, and you'd better be more than willing to state your business to anyone who asks you about it. Of course, downtown in a city, such questioning would be an outrageous impertinence. But not in a private neighborhood.

Where I grew up (rural Kentucky), there were some people's farms or hill properties where it was widely known that you could be shot if you were found there without having business being there. Made no difference if you were a blithe schoolkid on the way to get some Skittles or hanging out or whatever. This was more or less considered normal (some muttered complaints about the owners' being "mean" would be heard, rarely, but that was all). You can laugh about inbred hicks, etc., but America is a big, strange country, and a wise person learns the local customs. You can't just stroll anywhere.

Svigor said...

There are 683,000 people in North Dakota, about 7,000 of them are black. The answer to your question is; "the same reason Svigor complains about blacks and lives in a city where they make up 50% of the population instead of moving to North Dakota."

Why you always got my name on your lips, son? If complaining about Blacks is your complaint, surely you can find someone more representative?

And why not take your own medicine? You're always complaining about Steve's commentariat; move your ass on to your own virtual Idaho. It wouldn't cost you a dime, but you can't even bring yourself to take your own advice when it's free.

Now here's what I find interesting; I make, roughly the same comments with two audiences; for those comments, I am considered and Uncle Tom by one, and Malcolm X by the other. What say you?

I say that in the process of conflating the arguments of an entire audience down to a single position, you've lost every person in that audience, because said position reflects no one's actual position.

Svigor said...

What I'd like to know is, how can T-Dog hint he's a libertarian, hint he's a Ron Paul supporter, and quote "Ayn Rand" approvingly, but refuse to honestly engage the issue of Freedom (for what? Five years now?):

Do men (even White men!) have the right to choose for themselves with whom they form neighborhoods, communities, churches, schools, businesses, and institutions? If so, aren't anti-Freedom laws (so-called "anti-discrimination" laws) among the foremost injustices being perpetrated by Americans today?

Svigor said...

Yes, and why is it that they established that procedure in the first place? Well, I'll tell you why, Svigolini, because a team of psychologists, economists, and criminal justice PHDs has established that THAT IS THE BEST PATH TO A POSITIVE OUTCOME.

But no lawyers, of course. Heavens, no.

The positive outcome most bureaucracies are primarily interested in is a positive outcome for the bureaucracy.

Seeing as how it may cost Mr. Zimmerman 25 years of his life, I'd say it was good advice, eh, Grasshopper?

Maybe he should have used his smart phone. But according to the Truth's Logic of Outcomes, if he beats the rap, he's a genius. Right? And since the kid's on a slab, he's a dumbass. Right?

Again, is it unreasonable that a the fight-or flight response would kick in for a teenager who is being followed by a large, creepy man with a gun?

No, he didn't have a smart phone. Clearly, flight was the better choice, but we can't expect a promising young lad to think up "feets, don't fail me now" all by himself.

There was no "confrontation" until a large, creepy man with a gun cornered him.

I missed the evidence for that one. Maybe we can get a photo of where he was "cornered." That would be novel. I've never seen the first location in a gated community where one can be "cornered."

LOL! 16 posters just mumbled "N- Lover" under their breaths.

Yeah. That's the ticket. I'm not just doing this to wind you up or anything.

Anonymous said...

Truth,

Your 'charitable' scenario of what occurred is flatly contradicted by the facts. And you imagining motivation for a seventeen year old boy is as laughable as I have ever read.

I have been in hundreds if not thousands of contact situations with suspects and I have been involved with nearly as many physical fights at various stages of going down.

By all accounts of actual witnesses, it was Zimmerman calling for help. He was the one assaulted, unless you think he faked the physical evidence. According Martin's girlfriend he was on the phone with her. IF Martin was concerned, he would have called the police.

I don't know why they keep playing up the '140 pound' stuff but since he was on the football team it was either all muscle or flat wrong. Let me construct a more plausible scenario for you.

I know you don't have the nutsack to get out of your car and ask why a person wearing a hoodie is jumping fences in your neighborhood but imagine you did. And suddenly you are confronted by an angry football player the better part of a foot taller than you. You are short and out of shape, fat really, and can neither run nor really fight with this towering young man. He comes towards you bulking huge in his sweatshirt (it either was far too big for his 'dainty' 140lb frame in which case it would have added considerably to his perceived size or the 140lbs is wrong in which case he actually was as big as his clothes made him look) with his face in shadow but you stand your ground anyway because you live here and these people are your friends and neighbors (I know, tough for you to wrap your mind around but try).

Now put yourself in Martin's shoes; this young man sees a fat, scared, man who has just pissed him off by following him while he jumped fences and ran through yards.

The guy is a lot shorter than you and obviously slower. Certainly never able to follow you over the next fence if you simply jump it and run. Instead you're pissed, tired of running from this little fat fucker and ready to do some serious damage. He gets out, of his car, you see he's too fat to follow you and if you jump a fence now you'll lose him for good but you're going to teach him a lesson and maybe have some fun.

You wait until he's close enough then sucker punch him and keep pounding him once he's on the ground. You pound him long enough and hard enough to mess up his face and the back of his head. You keep pounding long enough for a neighbor to call 9-11 and for the operators to hear the fat, old guy underneath you screaming for help. Maybe you're having some fun, maybe you're getting some of your own back because he's smaller than you (height matters more than weight especially to young men), maybe you just pissed because he was such a fat little fuck who followed you for too long.

At some point the guy is able to draw a gun from somewhere while you're beating the holy piss out of him. Instead of running at that point or backing off you keep up your assault and your victim knows that nothing will stop you short of a bullet.

Now that sounds more like what happened and it fits the physical and witness evidence.

Full Sail said...

What were Trayvon's issues?

From the Miami Herald:

Still, Trayvon had nonviolent behavioral issues [emphasis added] in school, and on the day he was killed, he had been suspended for 10 days from Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in North Miami-Dade.

“He was not suspended for something dealing with violence or anything like that. It wasn’t a crime he committed, but he was in an unauthorized area [on school property],” Martin said, declining to offer more details. [emphasis added]

Before that, Trayvon attended Miami Carol City High School near his mother’s home in Miami Gardens.

“He was doing average in school, a little bit better when he was at Carol City and then I had him transferred,’’ she said this week. “I thought Krop was a better school and I wanted a different environment for him. [Why?] My oldest son has graduated from there.’’
__________

Sidebar: George Washington University Law Professor Jonathon Turley has an interesting assessment of the evidence as it now stands on his bog. The key will be the forensics.

Anonymous said...

Steve has enough on his plate. Why don't you argue with Major Truthiness? It's not like he's all that sharp and requires a special effort by the blog host to take down.


That is my complaint. I write responses to "Truth", and they don't get past Komment Kontrol. I'm not saying I want Steve to respond to "Truth" (though I think he could edit out many of his more inane comments). I'm saying that Steve does not publish criticism by other commenters of the stupid things which "Truth" says.

Anonymous said...

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/021821.html
Unlike Trayvon, no hate crime here.

Anonymous said...

"...Two went into medicine, two went into engineering. What do those occupations have in common? Great remuneration and *clean, non-risky* work...."

Ha ha.

I remember the first delivery I did as a medical student. The baby was coming out through a field of mother's pee, mother's shit, blood (from the episiotomy), and amniotic fluid stained with meconium (fecal shit).

All the while the foreign-trained resident was behind me screaming in a heavy accent to get on with it.

Paul Mendez said...

176 comments and nobody has asked the question:

Which of these African-American teens is most likely to wind up getting shot?

a) Tony Martin
b) Allan Martin
c) Trayvon Martin
d) Gregg Martin

Mademoiselle Marpèl said...

If one likes to play detective one can google map "retreat view circle sandford fl" and use 'street view' to get a pretty good idea of the "gated community" in which this occurred. When the google-photo-mobile went by the front gate wasn't closed. No guard hut either. Just a key pad. What I can't find is the store where the candy or iced tea were bought.

Truth said...

"And why not take your own medicine? You're always complaining about Steve's commentariat;"

Technically, that's more considered, Ridiculing.

Truth said...

"This is probably the key disagreement. From my perspective, if you are a stranger skulking around in the neighborhood,"

It's not "skulking" it's "walking." That tends to be the general method of transportation of teenagers without cars. "

and you meet the profile (black youth) you deserve to be questioned."

Well now, that's a violation of the 15th ammendment, you're going to have to take that one up with the Supreme Court, not here.

Truth said...

"I say that in the process of conflating the arguments of an entire audience down to a single position,"

LOL; I did not conflate the arguments to a single position, I conflated them to a CONSENSUS. I mean, let's be real Sviggy, I get more positive comments here at this WN blog than you do.

Truth said...

"What I'd like to know is, how can T-Dog...refuse to honestly engage the issue of Freedom...Do men (even White men!) have the right to choose for themselves with whom they form neighborhoods, communities, churches, schools, businesses, and institutions?"

We've been through this innumerable times now, haven't we? I'll make it simple; You get a choice to decide where YOU get to live.

You do not get a choice to decide where ANYONE ELSE gets to live.

Truth said...

"Maybe he should have used his smart phone. But according to the Truth's Logic of Outcomes, if he beats the rap, he's a genius. Right? And since the kid's on a slab, he's a dumbass. Right?"

Bro, may I recommend a night class in logic at West Charleston Community College. If you're lucky maybe you can get a black guy to tutor you...

We'll go with it again. A confrontation between a party armed with a gun and a party armed with a bag of skittles is well in favor of the former...

THAT---IS WHY---THEY DON'T---ARM--- SOLDIERS---WITH BAGS---OF SKITTLES!

Truth said...

"No, he didn't have a smart phone. Clearly, flight was the better choice,"

OK, Logic 101 part II:

Not "Clearly flight was the better choice" but "In retrospect flight may have been the better choice" There is no certainty that he would be alive no matter what path he took. Go back to the above post on soldiers carrying skittles."

Truth said...

"Anonymous said...

Truth,

Your 'charitable' scenario of what occurred is flatly contradicted by the facts."

Upon reading your post for the second time, I'm starting to think, or hope anyway, that it was satire, please tell me this is true.

Pincher Martin said...

Anonymous,

"That is my complaint. I write responses to "Truth", and they don't get past Komment Kontrol. I'm not saying I want Steve to respond to "Truth" (though I think he could edit out many of his more inane comments). I'm saying that Steve does not publish criticism by other commenters of the stupid things which "Truth" says."

It doesn't seem like Steve filters very much here, but I'm new to commenting on this blog so perhaps that's just my ignorance speaking.

I will say that there are no shortage to commentators responding to Truth on this particular subject, so why Steve would single you out for "Komment Kontrol" is mysterious and a little hard to believe.

Svigor said...

Technically, that's more considered, Ridiculing.

Now you're getting technical with me? When did you enter menopause?

Well now, that's a violation of the 15th ammendment, you're going to have to take that one up with the Supreme Court, not here.

I know you're not that dumb. Having a laugh?

LOL; I did not conflate the arguments to a single position, I conflated them to a CONSENSUS. I mean, let's be real Sviggy, I get more positive comments here at this WN blog than you do.

U mad bro?

We've been through this innumerable times now, haven't we? I'll make it simple; You get a choice to decide where YOU get to live.

You do not get a choice to decide where ANYONE ELSE gets to live.


Aaand you've ducked the question again. (I'll explain that if anyone other than T-Dog, or his potential sock-puppets, asks for clarification; otherwise I'll assume everyone but T-Dog sees the obvious here)

We'll go with it again

But that's a violation of T-Dog's Logic of Outcomes. Dead=dumbass. Alive=definitely not as much of a dumbass.

I've been paying attention. That is your logic.

Not "Clearly flight was the better choice" but "In retrospect flight may have been the better choice" There is no certainty that he would be alive no matter what path he took. Go back to the above post on soldiers carrying skittles."

You're waffling again. C'mon man, suck it up. Dead=dumbass, alive=definitely not as much of a dumbass. Hey, it's your logic. If you don't like it, stop using it.

Svigor said...

You do not get a choice to decide where ANYONE ELSE gets to live.

Did estrogen-poisoning make you cower in fear of answering the rest of my question, btw? It had to do with a lot more than where people choose to live.

Is it because you can't come up with a spurious answer?

How does a libertarian square his supposed beliefs with the fact that the gov't is violating people's right to decide who they hire and fire?

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