March 5, 2012

The Obama Administration's conspiracy theory

From the NYT: 
Black Students Face More Discipline, Data Suggests 
By TAMAR LEWIN 
Black students, especially boys, face much harsher discipline in public schools than other students, according to new data from the Department of Education. 
Although black students made up only 18 percent of those enrolled in the schools sampled, they accounted for 35 percent of those suspended once, 46 percent of those suspended more than once and 39 percent of all expulsions, according to the Civil Rights Data Collection’s 2009-10 statistics from 72,000 schools in 7,000 districts, serving about 85 percent of the nation’s students. ... Over all, black students were three and a half times as likely to be suspended or expelled than their white peers.... 
“Education is the civil rights of our generation,” said Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, in a telephone briefing with reporters on Monday. “The undeniable truth is that the everyday education experience for too many students of color violates the principle of equity at the heart of the American promise.”


95 comments:

Anonymous said...

I guess that African Americans would be better off in a country all of their own, where they do not have to deal with evil racist whites.

Perhaps Liberia would be interested in taking them.

Anonymous said...

I see that you are responding to this posting at Marginal Revolutions about the conspiracy theories that foreign elites believe in.

They are crazy, aren't they. The foreign elites, I mean.

Grumpy Old Man said...

I saw this and figures Sailer would be commenting on it. I guess no comment seemed necessary.

Occamites of the world unite.

rightsaidfred said...

Liberals want to take guns away from people based on the claim that they do more harm than good.

Maybe we should take statistics away from Liberals for the same reason.

Anonymous said...

I was made a conservative by observing the behavior of black kids in the public school system.

Reg Cæsar said...

Black [homeowners], especially [men], face much harsher [permit-denial rates] in [police stations] than other [citizens], according to new data from the Department of [Justice].

Oh, wait... that's the Magic World of Gun Control, where No Racism Exists...

Anonymous said...

Is it the Left now throwing school teachers under the bus? Because the only conclusion that can be reached -- once the totally unacceptable but actually correct answer that black kids behave worse than white kids and thus deserve more punishment has been rejected -- is that teachers are racist. Therefore the Left should agree to cut their salaries and pensions, right?

Maya said...

You know... I cried and refused to eat to save that German Sheppard who left a permanent bite mark on my behind when I was 8, but I want to punch the writers of such articles in the face so badly. Because, the dog, he wasn't evil. He sincerely misinterpreted my intentions, with reasonable cause. But these "journalists", they aren't sincere. They got no truth nor honorable cause to lean on.

And they are not just bullying me and mine by making working conditions near intolerable while insulting our professional and human qualities. They are doing an extreme disservice to those boys they claim to be helping. I'm sure that many had ended up in jail, or fired from a McJob or killed by their gang leaders because schools are no longer allowed to instill the minimum of discipline and self-control into those who lack it the most. And the, of course, there are those kids who actually come to school in order to learn, but don't get a chance to do that. But who cares about them?

Anonymous said...

"“Education is the civil rights of our generation,” said Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, in a telephone briefing with reporters on Monday. “The undeniable truth is that the everyday education experience for too many students of color violates the principle of equity at the heart of the American promise.”"

They'd better form their own schools and show us how this is done.

"Is it the Left now throwing school teachers under the bus?"

What else can the left do? Admit that they are wrong? If you look back at the leftists of the 19th century they all had the same drive to help, and yet because of their failure were branded as racists. The same will come to pass with this crop of leftists.

Maya said...

"Is it the Left now throwing school teachers under the bus? Because the only conclusion that can be reached -- once the totally unacceptable but actually correct answer that black kids behave worse than white kids and thus deserve more punishment has been rejected -- is that teachers are racist. Therefore the Left should agree to cut their salaries and pensions, right?"

The Left is already agreeing to do that by accepting those laughable "value added" ratings in more and more places, and agreeing that it's a good idea to fire the "bad" teachers.
Tip: the bad teachers are those who teach the kids who are neither willing nor able to act civilly without a harsh system of punishments instituted by the administration (which happens in fewer and fewer places, and who's parents don't care about them.

ProTip: The "worst" teachers tend to be the ones who are too old to physically keep up with the demands of a violent classroom. I mean, I can jump over desks just fine, and the students know it. But my 60 year old mentor just got rated very poorly. Meanwhile, I'd love for her to teach my future children, such an experienced, kind, creative and caring lady.

Anonymous said...

And I wager once the teachers slacken discipline and let the black kids run riot, black interest groups will castigate them for their failure to 'instill discipline and manners' on their kids allowing them to 'grow up an become gang-bangers'.
The teachers will be castigated for not 'caring enough about black kids' to discipline them.

Anonymous said...

What else can the left do? Admit that they are wrong? If you look back at the leftists of the 19th century they all had the same drive to help, and yet because of their failure were branded as racists. The same will come to pass with this crop of leftists.

Its brilliant isnt it. Each round of failure can be written off due to lack of zeal or the racism of those older leftists. That must be part of the purpose of PC language and its constant change. eg To think, those old leftists talked about 'Negroes'. Such demeaning language betrays their true racism, no wonder the world is in the state its in. Rinse and repeat ad infinitum.

Anonymous said...

I have friends who do let Blacks and Hispanics run riot because they fear losing their jobs if there is "disparate impact". Whites are rapidly leaving the school, which used to be a wonderful school.
Robert Hume

Anonymous said...

Emulating the admission process of the most enlightened country in the galaxy could be a good start.

I have yet to read Tamar Lewin's pieces objecting to this kind behavior.

Aaron in Israel said...

So are you trying to make this a new right-wing talking point, or what? It's cute to try to turn the tables like this, but few if any liberals or leftists are suggesting there's a conspiracy to discriminate against black students or congressmen. Certainly none that are cited here. They're attributing it to racism, not conspiracy. And to call the whole doctrine of disparate impact a version of conspiracy-theory thinking is just plain lunacy.

It's kind of ironic that you've created this particular straw man, because it's the same straw man used by the left against the right. When Kevin MacDonald, for instance, argues that Jewish influence is behind such-and-such a phenomenon, he's inevitably described as peddling Jewish conspiracy theories. In fact, he's talking about open, non-conspiratorial behavior, but his adversaries don't care about describing things truthfully, any more than you do, when lies can serve their goals better.

Anonymous said...

The Oakland Raiders set the record for penalties assessed though I cannot fathom the reason.

Anonymous said...

“The undeniable truth is that the everyday education experience for too many students of color violates the principle of equity at the heart of the American promise.”"

They want to be treated equally.
They are treated equally.
Then they want to be treated royally.
They are treated ...

and so on and so on and so on.

Anonymous said...

Multiculturalism has failed, but its only just beginging to fail
We're also seeing the last f**k you from the baby boom generation to the country they hate.

Hail said...

It's surprising how many Whites (sometimes called 'Uncle Tims') support these conspiracy-theories.

As it happens, the uncle-timmiest of them all has a new book out attacking White-Americans. (What else?).

'Uncle Tim', a term coined by Steve Sailer, implies a White who sells out his own people and talks and acts like a typical Nonwhite Race Activist.

Is Tim Wise really a 'typical White American'? I hate to raise this old thing, but Tim did attend Hebrew school as a youth, and does seem to identify strongly with his partial Jewish ancestry. His autobiography, for those who have perused it, is loaded with anti-White-Christian rage, and romanticization of his Jewish ancestors.

Chicago said...

Blacks have ruined public education. This has been the case since they started with the social engineering back in the 60's. The lousiness of the public school experience is directly proportional to the number of blacks in it.This has never changed nor will it ever change. Whites pay for an education system that they themselves can't use unless they move around to find the ones that are still viable, which really means fewer blacks around.
This report will probably result in a call for more money to be sent to close yet another gap. How many more gaps are out there waiting to be discovered?

Hail said...

Tim 'Shalom' Wise's conspiracy theory about White Crime:

"Why aren't the authorities doing something to stem the tide of white mayhem?
...The next time you hear about some flesh-eating, Satan-worshiping teenager who just pickled his grandma, you'll know his race [White] before you even see his face on the nightly news, and you'll know that if he'd just spent a little more time in church with the Black folks, none of this might ever have had to happen.
"

In simple terms, Wise's conspiracy-theory: Whites commit more crime -- and of a more heinous nature than the 'steal bread to feed a starving family' crimes of Blacks -- but the media tends to cover it up.

Note that Tim Wise won the 'British Diversity Award' (whatever that is) for that radically anti-White essay.

Anonymous said...

Can the breathless story about "Black men more likely to be incarcerated for violent crimes" be far behind?

Anonymous said...

Clearly, this is an attempt to stop that very important segment of voters from staying home in November.

However, the really big question is: How does Zombie bin Laden figure into all of this?

Maybe they are going to re-animate bin Laden so that Obama can kill him again in a cage match or something. That would be a president people could vote for!

Harry Baldwin said...

As the evidence mounts, I sometimes wonder if the pre-civil rights era South had arrived at the only practical way for blacks and whites to live together. I hate to think so. There must be some modus vivendi between the extremes, but we are not moving toward it.

As for journalists, I recall Hunter S. Thompson, from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas : "Journalism is not a profession or a trade. It is a cheap catch-all for fuckoffs and misfits - a false doorway to the backside of life, a filthy piss-ridden little hole nailed off by the building inspector, but just deep enough for a wino to curl up from the sidewalk and masturbate like a chimp in a zoo-cage."

Anonymous said...

"Emulating the admission process of the most enlightened country in the galaxy could be a good start."

Well, Israel did admit the Ethiopians to the country en masse. The guy is lucky the orthodox school didn't take his kids. Even the decidedly mediocre Israeli public schools are better than the majority of religious schools.

Doug1 said...

Maybe, just maybe, blacks are a lot more disruptive, prone to fighting in school, and not obeying their teachers than white or NE Asian students are. They do after all commit murder at 7-8 times the per capita rate that whites do, and robbery, rape and other violent crimes at 4x the rate. They are after all far more likely to come from fatherless homes than whites of NE Asians.

If anything the problem in inner city schools seems to be that not enough disruptive black students are disciplined and forced to behave so that others, and perhaps even they themselves, and spend more time actually learning.

See this about what it's like to teach in a heavily black school:

http://martynemko.blogspot.com/2009/06/white-teacher-speaks-out-what-is-it.html

Anonymous said...

Clearly, some conspiracies, or is that conspiracy theories, are believed by the elites.

morleysafer said...

Pardon moi but I have a bad habit of checking the cv of reporters linked by Steve for these maybe-if-we-huff-&-puff-it'll-become-a-real-news-story stories. Her previous employers include Common Cause and something called the Nat'l Law Journal in NJ (an imprint of a West/Thomson-style conglomerate now). "Ms. Lewin joined The Times in 1982 as a financial reporter, with the column "Business and the Law," which appeared bi-weekly in the business section. In 1987, she moved to the national desk. Since then, she has covered social policy issues, health, aging, family and gender issues, and most recently, education."

Geoff Matthews said...

We know that a disproportionate number of murderers are black (I'm using murder as a standard here because it is the crime that is hardest to fake). Data also suggests that other violent crimes are disproportionately committed by blacks.
If we accept this (and the latter is open to argument), is it hard to accept that school children who are black are more likely to exhibit discipline and behavioral problems?

Anonymous said...

Black students are a teacher's worst nightmare. More then a few of them and the whole class is disrupted.

Anonymous said...

Given that blacks commit seven times the crimes that whites do,

given that blacks are disciplined at a 3.5 times that of whites rate,

conclusion the rate of black punishment should double.

goatweed

Whiskey said...

Leftism is really just Post Calvinist Puritanism. The same Scandinavian culture applies: group think, everyone outside the group is filled with wickedness, strong social pressure to conform to group rules, high trust within the group, strong social disapproval of sexual poaching among members (which dissolves trust), a faith in being able to engineer any solution needed, and the faith in social transformation by whatever gospel is the revealed truth of the age.

That's Puritanism in the current age. Of course Scandinavian culture Whites believe they are the saved, good people and all other Whites are evil and bad. You can see that in the Scarlett Letter, Hedda Gabbler, and Girl With the Dragon Tattoo. Of course SWPL/neo-Puritans believe all peoples have the same potential for intellectual achievement, save the "evil" Whites outside their culture. So of course they will continue to work to "preserve" that belief system.

Anonymous said...

My experience as a teacher is that black kids behave the worst by far, and they are the ones denying other kids an education by creating constant chaos.

I'd guess that blacks denying kids of other races an education by creating chaos in the classroom isn't what Duncan has in mind when he talks civil rights. Why does that man even have a job?

Anonymous said...

I went and read the comments in the NY Times to the original article. The first 20 could have been written by ISteve readers. Even liberals can't swallow this BS.

Baloo said...

Just another skirmish in Pat Buchanan's Culture War. This is linked and commented by Ex-Army HERE

Paul Mendez said...

"It's a Cee-Oh-En Spiracy, my bruthaaaaa!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwz9RAVou1U

Bébert said...

Emulating the admission process of the most enlightened country in the galaxy could be a good start.

B-But they told us that everyone was equal, and that racial demographics don't matter. Now you're telling me that they don't follow the same progressive rules in their country that they've prescribed to us in ours?

I'm shocked and disillusioned.

Reg Cæsar said...

Over all, black students were three and a half times as likely...

As bad as the NYT is, give them credit for correctly using as here, rather than the monstrous and increasingly prevalent more you see in other places.

"Three-and-a-half times as..." means 3.5x. "Three-and-a-half times more than..." sounds like 4.5x. So you're never really sure.

Anonymous said...

Did anyone even read the actual article? Not that it matters, it is obvious you will argue crippled black kids are somehow 'more violent' than crippled white kids.

It is not clear that the discipline gap is as simple as 'those barely sentient negroes are more troublesome', not when disabled children are being restrained apparently just because they are black.

Anonymous said...

"The data also showed that schools with a lot of black and Hispanic students were likely to have relatively inexperienced, and low-paid, teachers."

And the only way the data could be interpreted shows the culprit to be racism. What a surprise! Many teachers will take jobs in bad schools to get a first job, but get out as soon as possible for obvious reasons.

Spend some time in a classroom full of average black students, and you'll start to see why some people wanted segregation. Racist attitudes can't possibly account for the many problems that black students often bring to the classroom.

Maya said...

"Did anyone even read the actual article? Not that it matters, it is obvious you will argue crippled black kids are somehow 'more violent' than crippled white kids.

It is not clear that the discipline gap is as simple as 'those barely sentient negroes are more troublesome', not when disabled children are being restrained apparently just because they are black"

Have you ever worked with special ed students on a daily bases? Some are sweet and docile, some are always sleepy, some are excitable and some are extremely violent, to the best of their ability. Except for the two autistic boys, all of my special ed students are black, so I wouldn't know from the first hand experience if mentally challenged black kids are more likely to be violent than the mentally challenged white kids. However, in the interest of my other students' safety, I really wish I were allowed to restrain some of them. How do you know that the disabled students in the article were restrained simply because they were black? It's easy to avoid being assaulted by a kid in a wheelchair if he is parked into a far corner of the classroom, not when the law requires the teacher to put him right next to you.

Anonymous said...

Meanwhile, across the pond ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/05/young-black-unemployed-tragedy

"Figures I've just received from the Labour Force Survey reveal that unemployment among young black people (aged 16-24) is a shocking 44% – over twice the rate of their white counterparts, of whom 20% are jobless."

Anonymous said...

The article said black disabled kids had a higher restraint rate.

Reading is apparently not par for the HBD course.

Pre-integration, discipline rates were not higher in the all-black schools. As with many things pre-60s, they were also willing to throw out troublemakers so the rest could learn.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, when you are finished applauding yourself for "reading the actual article" consider moving on to a cursory Google search about various states' restraint policies for students classified by developmental disability. It's not a giant system of wheelchair-bound "cripples" locked in seclusion rooms, you nitwit.

ben tillman said...

As bad as the NYT is, give them credit for correctly using as here, rather than the monstrous and increasingly prevalent more you see in other places.

"Three-and-a-half times as..." means 3.5x. "Three-and-a-half times more than..." sounds like 4.5x. So you're never really sure.


I share your frustration, but look again at what The Times wrote:

Over all, black students were three and a half times AS likely to be suspended or expelled THAN their white peers.

The Times mixed the two constructions to produce a construction that has no meaning.

Anonymous said...

I was made a conservative by observing the behavior of black kids in the public school system.

And I was made a libertarian by observing the behavior of dumb white kids in public schools.

Anonymous said...

At the high school where I worked as a library assistant, there was a rule that I only ever enforced against black boys. The rule was "No Hugging in the Library". There were, IIRC, four or five black boys at the school. Three of them had to be ejected from the library at least once for violating this rule (always with white girls, who didn't ever quite hug back).

Why did I never enforce the rules against a white boy? No white boy ever broke the rule.

Maya said...

"And the only way the data could be interpreted shows the culprit to be racism. What a surprise! Many teachers will take jobs in bad schools to get a first job, but get out as soon as possible for obvious reasons."

Many young teachers get out of the bad schools as soon as possible not just because of the difficult students, but mostly because of the attitudes displayed in this article. I think many idealistic people would be glad to help where it's most needed if they weren't constantly bullied and blamed for all their students' failures. If while working much harder and in a much more stressful environment than average, a teacher is also constantly told that he is a racist deep down, not working hard enough, and doesn't care enough about the students, that's all the less reason to stay.

Truth said...

"Over all, black students were three and a half times AS likely to be suspended or expelled THAN their white peers.

The Times mixed the two constructions to produce a construction that has no meaning."

LMAO, isn't this thread about BLACK conspiracies?

Maya said...

"And I was made a libertarian by observing the behavior of dumb white kids in public schools."

Any place in particular for me to avoid in the coming years? I don't care what color they are, just don't want to deal with crazy anymore.

Baloo said...

Me, I was made a libertarian nationalist by observing the behavior of libertarians:)

Anonymous said...

Given that blacks commit seven times the crimes that whites do,

1. Honduras, which has few blacks (2%) has the highest murder rate in the world. Hondurans are overwhelmingly (90%) a mix of european caucasoid and native mongoloid.

2. Russia with hardly any blacks has almost twice the murder rate of Haiti which is the blackest nation in the western hemisphere. Before Putin, Russia led the world in murders. It is still pretty bad.

How does that fit into your simplistic black and white view of the world.?

Harry Baldwin said...

Anonymous said...

Given that blacks commit seven times the crimes that whites do,

1. Honduras, which has few blacks (2%) has the highest murder rate in the world. Hondurans are overwhelmingly (90%) a mix of european caucasoid and native mongoloid.

2. Russia with hardly any blacks has almost twice the murder rate of Haiti which is the blackest nation in the western hemisphere. Before Putin, Russia led the world in murders. It is still pretty bad.


Obviously, the commenters are referring to United States' statistics. Beyond that, a cursory examination of crime stats indicates that black majority nations lead the world in murders, with a few exceptions such as Honduras and Venezuela. This map makes it pretty easy to visualize.

Beecher Asbury said...

Given that blacks commit seven times the crimes that whites do,

1. Honduras, which has few blacks (2%) has the highest murder rate in the world. Hondurans are overwhelmingly (90%) a mix of european caucasoid and native mongoloid.

2. Russia with hardly any blacks has almost twice the murder rate of Haiti which is the blackest nation in the western hemisphere. Before Putin, Russia led the world in murders. It is still pretty bad.

How does that fit into your simplistic black and white view of the world.?


That is a good question. It also shows why people on our side of the divide are so concerned over the so called cultural wars and the way the society is run. Because even with a good population, a badly run nation can destroy even the best of people. Take North Korea. Clearly these guys have high IQs and are well behaved, but they are backward and near starving because of the terrible system.

The same is true of China which has exploded only when their social and political system was modified.

Poor Russia endured over 70 years of what whiskey would describe as a Calvinist, Puritan system imposed upon them, and those people are still dealing with the consequences.

Just because one is European or Asian does not mean one will automatically succeed.

We seem to have examples of how Asians thrive, South Korea, Japan and now China. We have examples of how Europeans thrive as in the examples of the Anglo world for the past 150 years.

The problem is the conditions that lead to Europeans thriving are being radically altered by the "Puritans" and their allies in the Calvinist media.

I don't know what conditions or sytems need to be in place for Africans to thrive. Clearly they are having troubles thriving in the current systems in which they live such as the UK, the US and the African led nations of the world. Maybe there is a form of government and society that would bring out the best in them, but I don't know what that is.

Truth said...

"How does that fit into your simplistic black and white view of the world.?"

Oh come on, anonymous; we both know that when a white guy is killed by a white guy, as opposed to a black guy, he's a little less dead.

TangoMan said...

How does that fit into your simplistic black and white view of the world.?

The irony is strong in this one.

Pulling together disparate facts and mashing them together into a sentence does not serve as a coherent rebuttal. That would be a simplistic framing.

The claim was that blacks have a murder rate 7x higher than whites. What was the basis of this claim? Widely noted FBI crime statistics. Clearly the claim is anchored within the American context. Your retort? Pull data from Russia and Honduras. Brilliant! That will tell us so much regarding the American situation.

If you want to investigate the hypothesis of "being Russian leads to high murder rate" and use it to refute the FBI crime statistics, then in order to control for the influence of a host of confounding variables you'd best look to finding the murder rate of Russian-Americans and comparing that to the murder rate of African Americans. Do the same thing with Honduran-Americans.

Secondly, you should try to control for reporting discrepancies and cultural/political events that are transpiring in the countries you highlight. Has Russia had a higher murder rate for the last 100 or only since the rise of its Mafia state? Has Honduras always had a high murder rate or is this an artifact of either political turmoil in the country or of drug war tactics? Do the same with the US black murder rate - big body counts during the cocaine/crack heyday and reductions thereafter. That is, account for anomalies to the underlying phenomenon. Has the homicide rate of African Americans always been higher than white-Americans, in the modern era, or is this a temporary blip attributable to some observable social phenomenon restricted only to black-Americans?

To the larger point, while there may be academic interest in international comparisons sorted by race, the claim you responded to didn't broach that topic because the use of American statistics implicitly anchored the claim as a domestic issue. If you want to expand the scope of the issue to the international realm then don't strawman the question at hand - simply point to 2010 international homicide rates which show the following:

Southern Africa 32
Central America 25
East Africa 23
South America 21
Caribbean 21
West & Central Africa 19
Africa 17.4
Americas 15.5
East Europe 7
World 6.9
North Africa 6
Central Asia 6
North America 4.7
South Asia 4
Europe 3.5

Anonymous said...

Testing. Where are the comments? Why are they not being added?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Testing. Where are the comments? Why are they not being added?


Thanks. I guess all the other posts have been deleted. What a waste of time. I see you did get around to posting Whiskey's comments though.

Anonymous said...

Superman be mean.

Anonymous said...

The claim was that blacks have a murder rate 7x higher than whites. What was the basis of this claim? Widely noted FBI crime statistics. Clearly the claim is anchored within the American context. Your retort? Pull data from Russia and Honduras. Brilliant!

I agree it was a brilliant retort. :) Why? Because the entire thrust of of these black-bashing posts is that the urban "american context" of the past half century somehow proves that blacks are congenitally more violent than whites and other races. Those who draw such broad racial conclusions from such a narrow snapshot in space and time are ignorant, irrational or dishonest. Most likely a combination of all three.

How do you reconcile such conclusions with the fact that murder rates in America were ~5 times higher 200 years ago when blacks were slaves and completely under the thumb of whites?

http://tinyurl.com/7qtndck


Or that murder rates in mediaeval Europe were astronomical, higher than the current rate in Africa? Amsterdam in the mid-15th century had a homicide rate double that of New York today. The murder rate in the college town of Oxford, England a century earlier was 4 times that of NYC currently and so on:

http://tinyurl.com/76fkmvt


The swedes today are the epitome of civility and non-violence but just a few centuries ago they were a murderous lot:

http://tinyurl.com/75jsg9e

And that was after they were civilized by christendom! When they were Vikings they terrorized the rest of Europe.

And all this does not even take into account organized homicide in the form of wars and genocide, in which whites are the undisputed champions.

Let's have some intellectual honesty here.

TangoMan said...

Those who draw such broad racial conclusions from such a narrow snapshot in space and time are ignorant, irrational or dishonest.

You claim that they're ignorant, irrational and dishonest but your tactic of comparing the homicide rate of one group in 2012 to another group from 200 years ago on another continent is the hallmark of intellect, reason and honesty. Give me a break!

You really should give some thought to disciplining your mental processes for your tactic of mashing together crap like this in order to put out something, anything, as a response is pitiful.

Falsify the hypothesis by seeking out situations with as many confounding factors as possible being controlled. For instance, if you think that the problem is somehow unique to America then seek out crime data from the UK and show us that blacks there, comprising 10% of the population of London, are in fact, more law abiding than white Londoners. Go to Brazilian government statistics and show us that blacks there have lower homicide rates. Go to South African statistics sites and pull up the data that show that their white minority has a higher homicide rate. Show us the broad pattern in non-American cultures to demonstrate your contention that the American situation is an anomaly.

Alternatively, if you're so keen on pulling up data from centuries past, find comparable data for other groups and compare them in the same space-time continuum for god's sake.

Let's have some intellectual honesty here.

Take you own advice. Wanting to push back against an argument doesn't count for anything, actually pushing back by making a convincing case for your position is what counts. We all have to live in the world as it exists, not in the world that you imagine in your own mind, where you compare homicide rates in the 15th Century Amsterdam to New York's homicide rate in 2012 and declare that this solves the riddle of the high homicide rate seen in African-Americans in the present day compared to other contemporary American ethnic/racial groups.

TangoMan said...

Those who draw such broad racial conclusions from such a narrow snapshot in space and time are ignorant, irrational or dishonest.

You claim that they're ignorant, irrational and dishonest but your tactic of comparing the homicide rate of one group in 2012 to another group from 200 years ago on another continent is the hallmark of intellect, reason and honesty. Give me a break!

You really should give some thought to disciplining your mental processes for your tactic of mashing together crap like this in order to put out something, anything, as a response is pitiful.

Falsify the hypothesis by seeking out situations with as many confounding factors as possible being controlled. For instance, if you think that the problem is somehow unique to America then seek out crime data from the UK and show us that blacks there, comprising 10% of the population of London, are in fact, more law abiding than white Londoners. Go to Brazilian government statistics and show us that blacks there have lower homicide rates. Go to South African statistics sites and pull up the data that show that their white minority has a higher homicide rate. Show us the broad pattern in non-American cultures to demonstrate your contention that the American situation is an anomaly.

Alternatively, if you're so keen on pulling up data from centuries past, find comparable data for other groups and compare them in the same space-time continuum for god's sake.

Let's have some intellectual honesty here.

Take you own advice. Wanting to push back against an argument doesn't count for anything, actually pushing back by making a convincing case for your position is what counts. We all have to live in the world as it exists, not in the world that you imagine in your own mind, where you compare homicide rates in the 15th Century Amsterdam to New York's homicide rate in 2012 and declare that this solves the riddle of the high homicide rate seen in African-Americans in the present day compared to other contemporary American ethnic/racial groups.

Anonymous said...

Amsterdam in the mid-15th century had a homicide rate double that of New York today. The murder rate in the college town of Oxford, England a century earlier was 4 times that of NYC currently and so on:

I made a mistake. I was looking at NYC data from 1993. Since then NYC has become a much safer place. Based on current homicide rates Amsterdam then was ~7 times as murderous as NYC and Oxford ~15 times as homicidal!

Oxford then had a homicide rate 3 times that of Detroit today. The city of London in the 14th century had a rate significantly higher than Detroit's current rate as well.

Clearly nurture can trump nature. Barbarians can become civilized; and civilized people can devolve into barbarians.

Harry Baldwin said...

Anonymous, the murder rates among medieval Europeans or 19th century Southern whites are not relevant to the discussion. Neither is World War II. We are talking about the inability of our society to operate public schools without disruption by out-of-control black students.

Anonymous said...

You claim that they're ignorant, irrational and dishonest but your tactic of comparing the homicide rate of one group in 2012 to another group from 200 years ago on another continent is the hallmark of intellect, reason and honesty. Give me a break!

Were the Brits, Dutch and Swedes of the middle ages (or the German nazis of WWII) a different race than today's white americans of northern european ancestry?

Anonymous said...

We are talking about the inability of our society to operate public schools without disruption by out-of-control black students.

Many of the posters just love to jump to the conclusion that it is an intractable racial issue. Which it is not.

Besides the above historical perspective here is something else for such folks to consider: why aren't out-of-control black students disrupting classes in american colleges?

TangoMan said...

why aren't out-of-control black students disrupting classes in american colleges?

Your need to defend your position while being ill-equipped to do so leads you to ask really bizarre questions.

First, you assume that which is not proven. Second, to the extent that there is a reduction in class disruption, the selection effect is the most likely factor at work. The most disruptive students never find their way to college classrooms. That though says nothing at all about the topic of this thread. You're not really saving the day here by pointing to black college students and thus disproving the problem in the public school system.

Backing up to the first point behold, Rothman, Lipset, & Nevitte:

As the proportion of black students enrolled at the institution rose, student satisfaction with their university experience dropped, as did assessments of the quality of their education, and the work efforts of their peers. . . .

The same pattern held for the faculty sample's evaluation of the educational milieu. Among faculty members enrollment diversity was negatively related to perceptions of the quality of education, the academic abilities of students, and the work efforts of students, . . .


So even with the selection effect at work and only blacks who meet the threshold of admission to college being enrolled, thus presumably not having a history of being disruptive in high school classes, there is still something going on at the college level where their presence works to lower the satisfaction levels of both students and professors.

Beecher Asbury said...

why aren't out-of-control black students disrupting classes in american colleges?

Alabama State University cafeteria fight. I guess technically it did not happen in a classroom, but....

Svigor said...

'Uncle Tim', a term coined by Steve Sailer, implies a White who sells out his own people and talks and acts like a typical Nonwhite Race Activist.

Is Tim Wise really a 'typical White American'? I hate to raise this old thing, but Tim did attend Hebrew school as a youth, and does seem to identify strongly with his partial Jewish ancestry. His autobiography, for those who have perused it, is loaded with anti-White-Christian rage, and romanticization of his Jewish ancestors.


I prefer "Uncle Tom" to "Uncle Tim." "Uncle Tim" is too much like "reverse racism."

And no, folks like Tim "Nobody Here But Us White Folks, And Aren't We Wicked!" Wise don't qualify.

Tim's just a plain old racist.

Svigor said...

And all this does not even take into account organized homicide in the form of wars and genocide, in which whites are the undisputed champions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide

Between April 6 and mid-July of 1994 (roughly three and a half months, or approximately 100 days), the UN estimates 800,000 were murdered in the Rwandan genocide. That was roughly 20% of the Rwandan population. 8000 people a day.


The WWII Holocaust:
(365 * 5 = 1825 days)

6 million style:
6,000,000/1825 = 3287/day

or if you prefer:

11 million style:
11,000,000/1825 = 6027/day

Vs.

The Rawandan Holocaust:
800,000/100 = 8,000/day

So, Blacks with machetes (you had to pay a bribe to get a bullet) whupped those Nazis with gas chambers, but good.

Imagine if they had bombers and nukes!

Svigor said...

Let's have some intellectual honesty here.

I take it that isn't a joke. But it is pretty funny.

I agree it was a brilliant retort. :) Why? Because the entire thrust of of these black-bashing posts is that the urban "american context" of the past half century somehow proves that blacks are congenitally more violent than whites and other races. Those who draw such broad racial conclusions from such a narrow snapshot in space and time are ignorant, irrational or dishonest. Most likely a combination of all three.

As someone else said:

We seem to have examples of how Asians thrive, South Korea, Japan and now China. We have examples of how Europeans thrive as in the examples of the Anglo world for the past 150 years.

The problem is the conditions that lead to Europeans thriving are being radically altered by the "Puritans" and their allies in the Calvinist media.

I don't know what conditions or sytems need to be in place for Africans to thrive.


The entire thrust of the "black-bashing" is that Blacks don't thrive anywhere, and that this lack of thriveiness is persistent. The "congenital" part is explanatory, not descriptive. Can you deal with the description? Or must you obsess over the explanation?

How do you reconcile such conclusions with the fact that murder rates in America were ~5 times higher 200 years ago when blacks were slaves and completely under the thumb of whites?

Well, if you could bring us the murder rates for sub-Saharan Africa 200 years ago, we might have the beginning of a conversation? What's that? No records at all? Well, there's a good sign.

Or that murder rates in mediaeval Europe were astronomical, higher than the current rate in Africa?

Do you have the murder rates for sub-Saharan Africa from the same time period? What's that? No records at all? Well, there's a good sign.

Amsterdam in the mid-15th century had a homicide rate double that of New York today.

And what was the homicide rate in (sub-Saharan African city of your choice) in the mid-15th century?

The murder rate in the college town of Oxford, England a century earlier was 4 times that of NYC currently and so on

And so on. Hell, find me a college town in sub-Saharan Africa in the mid-14th century, and I'll be impressed.

The swedes today are the epitome of civility and non-violence but just a few centuries ago they were a murderous lot

Again, how long are we supposed to compare apples to oranges for you?

Svigor said...

Many of the posters just love to jump to the conclusion that it is an intractable racial issue. Which it is not.

Oh, you're right about that. Blacks were much better behaved under slavery. So there's one system that worked. Colonialism, too, so there's two. Oh, and Jim Crow, so there's three.

Seeing a pattern yet?

Hail said...

"Based on current homicide rates Amsterdam was ~7 times as murderous as NYC [today]"

See here (Topic 2).

Anonymous said...

Oh, you're right about that. Blacks were much better behaved under slavery. So there's one system that worked. Colonialism, too, so there's two. Oh, and Jim Crow, so there's three.

I am guessing that you don't feel the same way about serfdom in Russia. Right?

I suggest you check out how blacks behaved under slavery in Haiti.

By the way, how do you feel about the Japanese defeating and humiliating the European colonials: British, French, Dutch in southeast Asia in WWII?

Anonymous said...

By the way, how do you feel about the Japanese defeating and humiliating the European colonials: British, French, Dutch in southeast Asia in WWII?

I guess the same way I feel about Europeans defeating and humiliating the Japanese colonials in Southeast Asia shortly after.

Maya said...

"I am guessing that you don't feel the same way about serfdom in Russia. Right?"

Russian serfdom was a horrible inhumane institution, as was the American slavery, as was the Soviet dictatorship. No argument. However, when the Soviet era ended, crime levels got so bad and life became so lawless that a great bulk of Russians welcomed Putin and still consider his undemocratic, repressive methods preferable to the mess that was there before him.

Those who behave like animals deserve to be treated as such, regardless of their origin. It's better to err on the side of providing the regular folk with a predictable environment with a limited thug factor than it is to err on the side of being understanding towards the various types of lowlifes and how they got that way.

No matter how you spin it, the ghetto dwellers and their children would benefit from a heavier hand delivering more punishment. It would increase their health, productivity and life span, on average.

"I suggest you check out how blacks behaved under slavery in Haiti. "

I don't know how the slaves behaved in Haiti, before revolting, but the Haitians sure benefited from the US Marines forcing them to stand in line in order to get the goodies, right after the earthquake. I remember them thanking our troops for being there to keep chaos at bay.

"By the way, how do you feel about the Japanese defeating and humiliating the European colonials: British, French, Dutch in southeast Asia in WWII"

I'm not sure what's this got to do with anything. Personally, I don't have a strong emotional response to these historical events, though, I'm happy that the "good guys", my guys, won in the end.

The point of the article being discussed is that the students in the predominantly black inner city schools ruin their own futures and the futures of their unfortunate classmates because they aren't being disciplined enough. If I were the head of KKK, I'd agitate to discipline them less. As someone who actually cares, i'd like to discipline them about 10 times as much as they are being disciplined right now.

Anonymous said...

The WWII Holocaust:
(365 * 5 = 1825 days)

6 million style:
6,000,000/1825 = 3287/day

Vs.

The Rawandan Holocaust:
800,000/100 = 8,000/day



Actually over 60 million people died in WWII, mostly white on white homicide. Please redo your calculations.

Beecher Asbury said...

Actually over 60 million people died in WWII, mostly white on white homicide. Please redo your calculations.

I think the point Svigor was trying to make was that the Rwandan slaughter was pretty significant given the lack of sophisticated weapons involved versus the killing machine in WW2 Europe.

As for the 60 million dead, remember 10 to 20 million were Chinese that died primarily as a result of the Japanese. Throw in another 1 million Vietnamese and half a million Koreans and Asian on Asian homicide contributed a good deal to this total.

Euro on Euro was still the majority, but the Asian rate was high given that they did not erect the death camps the Germans did.

Anonymous said...

The WWII Holocaust:
(365 * 5 = 1825 days)

6 million style:
6,000,000/1825 = 3287/day


Why limit WWII to just the Holocaust? Don't the 20 million russian dead count? Take the total dead in WWII (over 60 million) and the kill rate is over 32,000 a day which is 4 times the Rwandan rate.

What takes first prize is the nuclear holocaust of Hiroshima and Nagasaki which killed 150,000 to 250,000 japanese (almost all civilians, women, children) in a split second. That was a white on yellow war crime. No blacks or browns to blame.

Anonymous said...

Russian serfdom was a horrible inhumane institution, as was the American slavery, as was the Soviet dictatorship. No argument. However, when the Soviet era ended, crime levels got so bad and life became so lawless that a great bulk of Russians welcomed Putin and still consider his undemocratic, repressive methods preferable to the mess that was there before him.

True.

Certainly more discipline is need in the public schools. No arguments there. But it is important that such discipline comes from a just and loving place not from a racially prejudiced one.

White students can also be disruptive. Who is guilty of most of the mass shootings in american schools and colleges? Whites and east asians or blacks?

Anonymous said...

As for the 60 million dead, remember 10 to 20 million were Chinese that died primarily as a result of the Japanese. Throw in another 1 million Vietnamese and half a million Koreans and Asian on Asian homicide contributed a good deal to this total.

Well, I did write that WW II was "mostly white on white homicide"....

And then there was WW I which killed some 22 million in 4 years, overwhelmingly whites killed by whites. A kill rate that is also higher than the Rwandan one.

Before the bloody World Wars there were the Napoleonic Wars which killed millions of europeans.

And before that the 30 Years War between Catholics and Protestants which killed some 8 million europeans, wiping out upto 40% of the german-speaking population.

In ancient times there were the brutal wars between Rome and the nordic barbarians. Ceasar became famous for killing 1 million Gauls and enslaving another million.

Europe has had a very bloody history.

Maya said...

"Certainly more discipline is need in the public schools. No arguments there. But it is important that such discipline comes from a just and loving place not from a racially prejudiced one.

White students can also be disruptive. Who is guilty of most of the mass shootings in american schools and colleges? Whites and east asians or blacks?"

I don't know if there is a disparity in behavior between the students of different races, and if there is, I don't know why it exists.

What I do know, as a teacher who works in a predominantly black inner city school, is the discipline in the classrooms is lacking so severely that the vast majority of the children aren't getting an education at all. It's simply impossible. I also know that the vast majority of my colleagues spend a bulk of their paychecks on the supplies, sweaters and snacks for the students, stay long hours after school's out and genuinely care about the kids.

Sadly, we are not able to discipline our students because the district is trying to cut down on the disparity between the reports of misconduct of black and white students. Too bad. They could have less injuries and actually learn something, under saner circumstances.

Do you really want the teachers to run out to check whether enough white students had been busted before writing up a violent black student? THAT is what's being accomplished by these types of articles and the pressure they put on the districts.

There's only been a handful of school shootings in America. Students in my school throw things, push each other down, make each other bleed and completely ignore their teachers every day.

You want to know about real white privilege? As a white kid in a majority white school, I didn't have to worry about the violent bullies and constant loud disruptions in class. My teachers and administrators were allowed and encouraged to stop them which provided me with an environment conductive to learning. Sadly, our media and politicians don't allow the black kids who go to predominantly black schools the same luxury. They tie the teachers' hands by constantly implying racism and threatening lawsuits.

In the end, the troubled, violent kids don't get their behavior corrected and end up in jail or worse while their victims, the rest of the class, get hurt and learn nothing in school. Great job fighting racism, everybody!

Svigor said...

Actually over 60 million people died in WWII, mostly white on white homicide. Please redo your calculations.

I was doing the calculations for genocide, not war. But Rwanda killed off 20% of its own population in 100 days, so I think Europe fell short there, too.

Svigor said...

I am guessing that you don't feel the same way about serfdom in Russia. Right?

1.) No. Russians are Russians, and Blacks are Blacks. So obviously I don't "feel" the same way about them.

2.) If you're going to compare Blacks to Russians, does that mean I should be comparing Whites to Haitians?

3.) As someone else said:

We seem to have examples of how Asians thrive, South Korea, Japan and now China. We have examples of how Europeans thrive as in the examples of the Anglo world for the past 150 years.

The problem is the conditions that lead to Europeans thriving are being radically altered by the "Puritans" and their allies in the Calvinist media.

I don't know what conditions or sytems need to be in place for Africans to thrive.



I suggest you check out how blacks behaved under slavery in Haiti.

I suggest you check out how Blacks behave under equality and liberty...in every post-colonial environment, from Detroit to the Congo.

I also suggest you keep in mind that I was going with the issue's inherent premises, which include the idea that Whites must live alongside, and somehow "fix" Blacks. I reject that premise, so my answer was only rhetorical. In fact, that was kind of the point I was trying to make.

By the way, how do you feel about the Japanese defeating and humiliating the European colonials: British, French, Dutch in southeast Asia in WWII?

I don't "feel" about it at all.

No matter how you spin it, the ghetto dwellers and their children would benefit from a heavier hand delivering more punishment. It would increase their health, productivity and life span, on average.

Correct, but I'm not especially interested in their interests. I'm interested in ours, which is why I reject the aforementioned premises.

If I were the head of KKK, I'd agitate to discipline them less.

This is in the neighborhood of the point I'm making; White Supremacy is better for Blacks than White Separatism, but the latter is better for Whites. I'm not interested enough in what's good for Blacks to take the hit from White Supremacy; I prefer White Separatism (via equal rights and freedoms, Btw).

Anonymous said...

Who is guilty of most of the mass shootings in american schools and colleges? Whites and east asians or blacks?

Isn't it blacks though you would not know from the media coverage they receive.

Svigor said...

Certainly more discipline is need in the public schools. No arguments there. But it is important that such discipline comes from a just and loving place not from a racially prejudiced one.

I submit that "such discipline" will always be perceived as "racially prejudiced," and not "from a just and loving place." I say let people run their own affairs. Those (White, Black, whoever) who want to "integrate" and discipline Blacks "from a just and loving place" can do as they wish; Whites (and anyone else, along whatever organizing principles they value) who wish can separate and live among themselves and leave the integration to those who value it.

White students can also be disruptive. Who is guilty of most of the mass shootings in american schools and colleges? Whites and east asians or blacks?

Blacks, would be my guess.

Europe has had a very bloody history.

Europe has a history. So we're back to the apples and oranges thing again. What we know of pre-historic societies suggests they were bloodier than modernity (I forget the book, but I'm sure someone here can give us the title and a link).

Anonymous said...

It is crap like this that will always ensure some people will vote GOP in the presidential elections, no matter how bad the GOP nominees are. This nonsense goes on at the administrative level of every Democrat president. They can't help it, they have to give the true believer leftists lots of high level bureaucratic jobs to keep them quite and not rock the boat. When they get them they just run amok.

Beecher Asbury said...

Europe does have a bloody history, but check the out List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll. The rest of the world seems to be giving Europe a run for its money in that department.

On a side note, a previous wiki entry for the topic listed the Muslim Conquest of India as the conflict with the highest death toll even greater than WW2. However, it has been edited. Does anyone know if the Muslim Conquest of India was really that bad, or was the old wiki page flat out wrong?

Harry Baldwin said...

Slightly OT:

Two years ago, a 67-year-old white man was assaulted by a black man on a city bus and proceeded to whup his ass. After countless videos showing blacks beating whites on buses and city streets, it came as a welcome comeuppance. The bearded oldster was dubbed "Epic Beard Man" and became an internet sensation. Hollywood took notice and there is a movie coming out in April called "Bad Ass" that recreates the bus incident, followed by fictional scenes of the senior-citizen avenger exacting vigilante justice.

Only, guess what? The senior citizen is played by the Mexican actor Danny Trejo, and the bullies on the bus are white skinheads. Who could have predicted that?

Anonymous said...

Europe does have a bloody history, but check the out List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll. The rest of the world seems to be giving Europe a run for its money in that department.

That list clearly shows that northern europeans and asiatic mongoloids are by far the biggest killers in history.

Considering that the ongoing 2 century old dominance of the West, led by northern europeans this time around, is now facing the most serious challenge to its hegemony, from asiatic mongoloids led by China; and considering that both these competing races have a long history of cold blooded mass homicide, and both are now armed with weapons of mass destruction, one really has to fear for the future.

TGGP said...

When I was at university Tim Wise was invited to come speak. I sat in and heard him discuss how some white "ethnics" try to claim they're just [insert ethnicity] rather than white, and he included Jews like himself there. So it sounds like he's being misrepresented here.

Harry Baldwin said...

The post was about the problem of unruly kids in the classroom, and then commenters alluded to the statistically higher incidence of law-breaking and violence among blacks. "Anonymous" thinks he can counter this argument by pointing out that whites and Asians have killed a great many people in wars. However, the point is that groups that have difficulty disciplining themselves for a common purpose, such as maintaining order in a classroom, tend not to be very good in organizing themselves for great military operations, while groups which have more social cohesion, and which tend to be disciplined and orderly, tend to field very capable armies. African Americans are examples of the first sort of group, while Germans and Japanese are examples of the latter. The only outlier I can think of is Shaka Zulu, the Napoleon of Africa.

Anonymous said...

groups that have difficulty disciplining themselves for a common purpose, such as maintaining order in a classroom, tend not to be very good in organizing themselves for great military operations, while groups which have more social cohesion, and which tend to be disciplined and orderly, tend to field very capable armies. African Americans are examples of the first sort of group, while Germans and Japanese are examples of the latter. The only outlier I can think of is Shaka Zulu, the Napoleon of Africa.

There are plenty other historical examples:

Ancient Egypt which was neither white nor mongoloid.

The Ancient Nubians who conquered and ruled Ancient Egypt for some time.

The Ethiopians/Abyssinians who conquered Yemen before the muslim era, and attacked Mecca in Arabia (an event recorded in the Quran).

The Haitian revolutionaries under generals like Toussaint L'ouverture.

Kylie said...

"White Supremacy is better for Blacks than White Separatism, but the latter is better for Whites. I'm not interested enough in what's good for Blacks to take the hit from White Supremacy; I prefer White Separatism (via equal rights and freedoms, Btw)."

My thoughts exactly. Thanks.

Svigor said...

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/authors/Green-Wise.html

I don't think anyone's being too hard on Tim "nobody here but us white folks" Wise.