February 28, 2012

Wash. Post: Black women fat and happy about it

From the Washington Post:
Black women heavier and happier with their bodies than white women, poll finds
... The poll found that although black women are heavier than their white counterparts, they report having appreciably higher levels of self-esteem. Although 41 percent of average-sized or thin white women report having high self-esteem, that figure was 66 percent among black women considered by government standards to be overweight or obese. ... 
“Historically, [self-esteem] research on black girls and women has always been the highest among all groups,” Perry says. “It’s really a powerful statement about our resilience given the dominant images of black women present in American culture, which have been generally degrading and unattractive, or hypersexual and less feminine.”
“Why Are Black Women Less Physically Attractive Than Other Women?” 
“It is very interesting to note that even though black women are objectively less physically attractive than other women, black women (and men) subjectively consider themselves to be far more physically attractive than others . . . 
“What accounts for the markedly lower average level of physical attractiveness among black women? Black women are, on average, much heavier than non-black women.”
Satoshi Kanazawa
May 15, 2011 
Removed from Psychology Today Web site after uproar

In other words, Kanazawa was right, but he was wrong (and got suspended for it) for the usual "Who? Whom?" reasons. 

Overall, the roots of all this sound somewhat hormonal. If you have a lot of muscle, fat, and self-esteem, you probably have a different balance of hormones and hormones receptors than if you are thin and uncertain. This applies to white men, as well. The difference between a fat and muscular Hells Angel and an ectomorphic and uncertain bookkeeper probably start with hormones.

By the way, let me note once again that Hollywood, in practice, doesn't put up with much Diversity Ideology. Walking down Ventura Blvd., an upscale shopping street that serves lower level movie and TV people, about 5% or so of the women are black. Most have some connection with the entertainment industry or at least want to look like they do. 

And, guess what, they almost all look nice and slender.

Also, I'm not surprised this article ran in the Washington Post. My observation is that D.C. has the world's highest density of Large and in Charge (but not moving too fast) black women among big cities I'm familiar with. Trying to get a black lady who works in customer service at a CVS drugstore in the District to actually engage in, you know, customer service got to be a running joke on trips to Washington. Every visit to CVS called to mind JFK's observation that Washington is a city of Northern charm and Southern efficiency. 

87 comments:

not a hacker said...

a fat and muscular Hells Angel

Just based on my observations, this doesn't exist. I've seen fiction writers refer to "hard fact," but I still think HA's rely on pure bulk for any intimidation value. Kind of like black women, come to think of it.

Anonymous said...

Also noted to walk slower, more inconsiderately on Metro platforms.

Anonymous said...

Steve,

When was the last time you saw a white woman with big NATURAL breasts? Every time I open Playboy, every time I see softcore porn, I see white women with big FAKE breasts.

Are silicone bolt-ons, visibly artificial and hard to the touch, what most men want? Maybe some, but certainly not the majority. It's definitely not what I want.

I'm not a defender of black women. I just don't like hypocrisy when I see it, particularly when I'd wager more than half of your (male) readers occasionally peek at what you disparagingly call "fat"--and enjoy it.

And one other thing. It's a bit strange to see an HBD/right-wing person defending white American women while in other posts chiding them for being unfeminine, ugly, and spoiled by feminism. The blogosphere is filled with legitimate criticism of (white) American women by American men such as yourself, and I mostly agree. Well, at least black women do care about style and dress well to look good for males. They always have make-up, heels, and cleavage to please guys, unlike their white 'sisters'. Why don't you acknowledge that? So again, the right-wing blogosphere is being a little hypocritical.

Tony said...

They got high self esteem because the brothers like the big ass heavy women and aint shy letting them know that.

foseti said...

CVSes in DC are no-go zones for white people - Thank God for Amazon Prime

Anonymous said...

EXTRA! EXTRA! THIS WILL MAKE YOU SMARTER.

"This Will Make You Smarter gives us better tools to think about the world and is eminently practical for life day to day. The people in this book lead some of the hottest fields."
— David Brooks, from the Foreword

Anonymous said...

I know what will make people smarter. AND IT IS SO SIMPLE AND COST-EFFECTIVE. All Sergey Brin needs to do is whank off everyday and donate his cum to Arab nations. Everyday, impregnate fifty Arab women with Brin's cream. Over a year, that will mean 18,250 Arab children with either genius IQ or near-genius IQ. And then, Arab nations will produce as much wealth as Ashkenazi Jews in Israel.
Helluva lot cheaper and effective than all those expensive programs with teachers, books, computers, data collecting, etc.

Anonymous said...

how does this fit in with all those doll studies?

slumber_j said...

For what it's worth, Psych. Today CEO Jo Coleman is an actually Conservative Tory Englishman, whom I once met for dinner with a mutual friend after he'd just attended a New York fundraiser for a Tory MP candidate. I don't doubt that he's trying to keep his website clear of certain sorts of controversy for commercial reasons: Psych. Today connects tons of people with shrinks and gets paid in the process.

But I do doubt that he's engaging in politically-charged thought-cleansing for any but pecuniary reasons. Whether that makes it better or worse is of course a separate question.

No name said...

Its good you tossed in something about muscles and hormones. Now iSteve's commentators have something to comment on before the next sports post.

Me Ne Frego said...

"CVSes in DC are no-go zones for white people"

So it's like the Long John Silver of chain pharmacies?

No Name said...

BTW, next to a good-looking young white girl, there's no one with a larger sense of unearned entitlement than a big, black women.

They're fierce, they're fat, and they're in your face.

Anonymous said...

"When was the last time you saw a white woman with big NATURAL breasts? Every time I open Playboy, every time I see softcore porn, I see white women with big FAKE breasts."

So you haven't seen a naked woman. OK then. Please give us your expert opinion based on porn, basement dweller.

Anonymous said...

Follow-up headline: "Black Men Happier with Skinny White Women"

Miley Cyrax said...

"It’s really a powerful statement about our resilience given the dominant images of black women present in American culture, which have been generally degrading and unattractive, or hypersexual and less feminine.”

Yeah I have no idea where people would get these images... could it possibly be because black women have the highest obesity rates, most masculinized faces, the highest STD rates, and the highest rate of out-of-wedlock births of all the main races of women?

A real powerful statement all right. A powerful statement about obliviousness and delusions of grandeur.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 5:10...
Is that you, Troof?

Anonymous said...

How does this square with the Barbie-doll studies on children...apples and oranges?

CJ said...

“Historically, [self-esteem] research on black girls and women has always been the highest among all groups,” Perry says. “It’s really a powerful statement about our resilience..."

LOL. I knew something like that was coming but it still cracked me up.

Anonymous said...

It's plain racist to say that one race is more physically attractive than another without accounting for the evolutionary basis of sexual attraction. Many women considered attractive in America would be considered sick in African countries.

Had Kanazawa couched his comments more as societal norms etc., he would have been on solid ground. But the instant he used the word "objectively", he was racist. Sorry, Steve, and for agreeing with him, I could almost consider you racist too - not because you prefer White or Hawaiian beauty, but because you consider such a preference "objective".

Otis Mcwrong said...

@anonymous at 7:04: "Sorry, Steve, and for agreeing with him, I could almost consider you racist too - not because you prefer White or Hawaiian beauty, but because you consider such a preference "objective".

I could consider you racist. Because racist is a word that means whatever the accuser wants it to mean - typically it means "shut up", "I disagree with you" or "you are saying something I don't want to hear".

You used the word "objective" which I find racist, you spelled Hawaiian using the English/Haole spelling and not phonetically which is incredibly racist. And I wish you would shut up, which also makes you racist.

Anonymous said...

"Had Kanazawa couched his comments more as societal norms etc., he would have been on solid ground. But the instant he used the word "objectively", he was racist. Sorry, Steve, and for agreeing with him, I could almost consider you racist too "

Kanazawa didn't just throw that out there. It was backed by research into measures of attractiveness, such as facial symmetry.

Also, most people around here have swallowed enough blue pills to be innoculated against Mickey Mouse shaming.

Gilbert Pinfold.

morleysafer said...

"Thank God for Amazon Prime" <-- underexplicated chasm for the chroniclers of The Way We Live Now. Is Murray working yet on a Zappos vs. 99c Only* book


*(living 3 blocks from one, I noticed they have an online stock reservation form like most chains)

Kiwiguy said...

Putting it in Leonard Jeffries' terms, sun people tend to have higher self esteem than ice people.

Curiously, the other day there was a study showing Maori and Pacific Islander's are the happiest ethnic group in New Zealand - ahead of whites and asians. Again, this is despite being the poorest groups.

Anonymous said...

"Had Kanazawa couched his comments more as societal norms etc., he would have been on solid ground. But the instant he used the word 'objectively', he was racist."

So, generalizing from empirical data (science) is racist.

Gotcha.

Charitably, I could say you don't understand the difference between the normative and the descriptive. Satoshi wasn't, I think, saying that such-and-such an appearance was normatively best - i.e., that people OUGHT to desire it above others. He was simply describing what people actually do prefer, on balance.

Uncharitably, but perhaps more accurately, I don't think your brain even rose to the level of that fallacy, and you're just not bright.

Peter Paul Rubens said...

2/28/12 7:04 PM--yeah man, down down down with all this racism.

Kiwiguy said...

This would also seem to fit with year round tropical agricultural societies favoring selection for big man traits over nerdish traits (see Cochran & Harpending's discussion of Cad/Dad societies and Ed Miller's paper on Paternal Provisioning).

Peter Frost explained here in relation to the post on NFL linesman:

Year-round tropical horticulture

= more female reproductive autonomy
= less expensive polygyny
= more male-male rivalry for mates
= a more robust male body type

Madea Joins the Navy said...

Cheerful profane black matrons once occupied a meaningful countercultural position in mid-century America, however much that trope's been beaten into the ground via stand-up comedy or worse, the typical primetime dramedy (truly democracy at its ugliest). This article looked amusing in juxtaposition with Michelle O's obesity crusade but by the time you reach the 4th page it's firmly on message. They quote the award-winning documentarian woman not making some dash for glory with an assertion about Beyonce and the Weather Girls being all God's chillun and equally culturally tolerable--nope, this is another 100% anti-diversity social program ready to wheel out, synopsis of: "Black women are commendably immune to the psychic phantoms that mysteriously, genetically afflict white women, yet the forces of melanin remain within the bailiwick of the health care actuarial edifice and need to properly respect that, in addition to themselves."

Auntie Analogue said...

Why wouldn't women who can play either the racist, or the feminist card - or both of those cards! - have the highest self-esteem, when white women hold only one - and the less-reliable (see Walmart women employees' clas action suit) - of those two cards?

Further, white women, in slavish subsctiption to and mindlessly fawning pursuit of the "equal outcome" utopia, defer by social reflex to black women, even when black women don't play the race or the feminist card - so why wouldn't black women enjoy massive self-esteem?

So there's some "who/whom?" for ya!

Fatass Ho said...

"When was the last time you saw a white woman with big NATURAL breasts? Every time I open Playboy, every time I see softcore porn, I see white women with big FAKE breasts."

When was the last time you saw ANY kind of Real Woman in Playboy and the like?

Bitchass Ho said...

"how does this fit in with all those doll studies?"

Maybe they made the black dolls fatter and kids be digging that.

Anonymous said...

"Well, at least black women do care about style and dress well to look good for males. They always have make-up, heels, and cleavage to please guys, unlike their white 'sisters'."

Where do live?

Anonymous said...

Sorry, I meant to ask, "Where do you live?"

Anonymous said...

I might suggest that depictions of fat black women in the entertainment industry might have something to do with their high self esteem. Fat black women are never portrayed as the slow, angry, rude, ignorant slobs that you actually see in real life (ditto the men). They are portrayed as wise, sassy, vibrant, sexy and, as you said, "in charge." A good example is the character Donna Meagle as seen on Parks and Recreation. And Blacks of all shapes and sizes are completely, utterly addicted to television.

Skankass Ho said...

"It's plain racist to say that one race is more physically attractive than another without accounting for the evolutionary basis of sexual attraction. Many women considered attractive in America would be considered sick in African countries."

Evolutionary basis of sexual attraction is race-ist.

Funkyass Ho said...

To be sure, what is sometimes called 'self-esteem' could be a kind of defense mechanism or even a kind of delusion. The woman in SUNSET BOULEVARD still acts like she's a great star, but she's just fooling herself cuz she can't face reality.

And in nature, a frightened baboon will howl and act tough to hide its fear and fool the enemy that it's ready to fight.
And we see this in boxing too. A guy will get hit and be hurt, but he will smile as if to say, 'you didn't hurt me none', when in fact, he be hurting real bad.

Anonymous said...

Otis McWrong,

Actually, I believe you are wrong: studies of perceived attractiveness are often cross-cultural and do show some universal preferences.

Anonymous said...

Otis McWrong,

Actually, I believe you are wrong: studies of perceived attractiveness are often cross-cultural and do show some universal preferences.

jody said...

i don't think it has to do with anything other than, on average, individual africans often think they're the best, smartest, most attractive, strongest, wisest, most creative, fastest, most capable, whatever, in any situation.

person for person they're the least realistic and least modest people. i'm not saying none of them are, but wow, hang around them, regularly, to see wild overestimation of personal capabilities and self image. their ability to reasonably appraise how they rate relative to everybody else in various ways is really low.

perhaps this lies at the root of their regular outburts of anger - they go about life fairly convinced they're mostly the best at everything, then when they fail, they can't believe it. aren't i the best? of course i am. so it's the other people who are wronging me. self esteem is sky high for simply existing.

jody said...

is anonymous serious about no european women with big natural breasts? is the internet broken at his house?

i can assure him, there are dozens of them on the web with breasts so big it's hard to believe they are real.

i mean, seriously WTF with some of these models. boobs bigger than their heads.

Anonymous said...

Many women considered attractive in America would be considered sick in African countries.

You're absolutely right; consider Lara Logan and Caroline Sinz for example.

They might beg to differ, though.

pulchritudinous said...

"Actually, I believe you are wrong: studies of perceived attractiveness are often cross-cultural and do show some universal preferences."

I assure you it wasn't detailed enough. Black guys like T&A. A thinner female without at least one of those attributes is not, I repeat not, gonna be the preference for a brother. Hell, he might agree that the skinny chick with no ass would look better as a model but that's not who he'd prefer for sex.

You must have missed the "Baby Got Back" video from early MTV.

Reg C├Žsar said...

My informal research-- just using my lying eyes-- tells me that young East African women, i.e. Ethiopian, Eritrean and Somali, have solid but not excessive self-esteem. They certainly appear blessed with selves worth esteeming, kind of like the French actresses of a time long past.

Not to blow off esteem, but I'd prefer to know why these women are the happiest in town. It's probably their relative isolation from the petty ideologies of the day. In their circles, girls get to be girls.

BTW, Happy Leap Day, everybody. Today is Rossini's 53rd birthday-- he's the same age as Steve!

Eivind said...

What is "objectively less physically attractive" supposed to mean ? Relative to whose "objective" reality ?

What is the "objective" evidence that BMI 18 is more attractive than BMI 26 ?

Maya said...

Any study where the subjects are asked to rate their "self-esteem" are utterly meaningless.

How good a person feels about herself, at any given moment, depends on her desires and expectations. So, if I expect more from life (and men) and desire that which is harder to obtain, my satisfaction with my ability to obtain that which I want will tend to be lower than that of a person whose standards might be lower than mine.

Slender, professional black women who work as school principals and nurse practitioners don't act as self-satisfied as the large and in charge welfare whales. I bet they'd rate their "self-esteems" lower than an would an average ghetto dweller. However, they obviously have a very different standard of what is acceptable, normal and desirable. While a fit, well put together black accountant lady might despair over her well educated, gainfully employed, tall boyfriend not proposing after 3 years of a romantically satisfying relationship, a ghetto whale in a crooked wig might feel like a million bucks because a whole three imprisoned felons she's never seen before are writing to her about how they are going to f**k her as soon as they get out, and two of them would like to move into her section 8 apartment because they got nowhere else to go.

I guess, what I'm trying to say is that people who expect more from life, usually, understand that their potential success depends on the quality of their own person. Thus, the more a woman expects, the more self-criticism she will engage in. How would she gear herself towards the life she wants without critical self-assessment?

Whiskey said...

Black comedians such as Eddie Murphy (Norbit), Tyler Perry (Madea), Martin Lawrence (Big Momma's House), and Dave Chappelle, have a habit of dressing up as Black women, and parodying them as stupid, aggressive, FAT!, masculine, and again, stupid.

So there seems to be considerable resentment there. On the face of it, Black men seem to harbor some resentments in those areas. Germans don't make fun of themselves for liking beer, say.

I HATE HATE HATE this new Google layout. Its as ugly as sin.

Anonymous said...

Bet it wasn't much fun being Jo Coleman when that Satoshi Kanazawa article came out.
"Call and raise HELL all day today. DEMAND to speak with the CEO and not the editor who is basically trying to direct your anger into email. Yes you need to call even though at this time they are giving the run around.

CALL THE ADVERTISERS

Now that Psychology Today knows of this racist screed backed by junk science and refuses to take it down or at least peer review it, the time has come to start to call each and every advertiser whose ad appears on the website next to the Article.

Right now Argosy University is running an ad- their number is . As new ads appear begin to contact the advertisers directly.

Psychology Today has made a business decision to race-bait for page clicks. You need to make a decision to see that they do not profit from it.

DEFUND THIS RACIST GARBAGE http://www.whataboutourdaughters.com"

Anonymous said...

Steve,
I'm pretty sure this is down to ancient, atavistic patterns of mate selection that have evolved a genetic basis.
Hence we had the 'Hottentot Venus' that so excited British Victorian gentlemen,and authorities such as Sir Francis Galton, no less, using sextants to measure the buttock projection of African women.
The generalized prfeference seems to be for buttock development, the overspill being general female obseity, that is still held as exciting by African American males.
Where I live there are many, many Somali immigrants.I've noticed all the men are super skinny, whilst all the women are fat, particularly around the posterior - this obviously can't be down to nutrition, it's genetically hard-wired due to aeons of sexual selection.

Lugash said...

I am Lugash.

So there seems to be considerable resentment there. On the face of it, Black men seem to harbor some resentments in those areas. Germans don't make fun of themselves for liking beer, say.

Good point Whiskey. Black men in drag seems to be a comedic staple. The first black actor on SNL was frequently in drag.

I HATE HATE HATE this new Google layout. Its as ugly as sin

+1. Blogger/Blogspot is getting a little long in the tooth compared to other social media, but this new format isn't the way forward.

I am Lugash.

Anonymous said...

I think African descended men may prefer larger women with larger breasts (relative to Eurasians), because that is a way to be feminine (i.e. hits their "This is a woman with good amounts of fertility/estrogen" switches) while still being a robust provider type, and opposed to having small bones and being slender, which is a just as much a way of being feminine (or maybe more) that does not give a signal that you are a robust provider.

And since they have evolved in a situation where its more important for the woman to be a robust provider, relative to the man (higher female contributions to children, more male distraction on mating), that has a kind of evolutionary logic for them.

Anonymous said...

"Had Kanazawa couched his comments more as societal norms etc., he would have been on solid ground. But the instant he used the word 'objectively', he was racist."


So, generalizing from empirical data (science) is racist.



There is nothing scientific about not knowing the difference between "objective" and "subjective". What SK found was a subjective difference. An objective difference is that oxygen has greater weight than hydrogen.

Anything which depends on asking people for their opinion is subjective, because the outcome depends on what people think. Objective truths do not depend on what people think. That's the definition of objective truth.

Anonymous said...


So, generalizing from empirical data (science) is racist.


No, it is not racist. In fact, being "racist" is not a the end of the world and if my comments give that impression, it is because of how important it is to watch social perception when using certain words. And if Kanazawa wants to claim that social values can be considered objective simply because they are the values of the majority, hats off to him. My point is that standards of beauty do vary across cultures, and that when it comes to values, you can always define the bar as you want. I have not read the Kanazawa paper and if he spent a lot of time defining "objective" before using that word, then he is definitely not racist. However, he is naive because one should be careful not allow scientific research to be excerpted for soundbites that can be taken easily out of context.

Anonymous said...

I'd be interested in a follow-up gauging the relative self-esteem of heavy white women having children with black baby daddies.

Anonymous said...

I live in Washington, and I find the black middle class --including the large and in charge women--pretty reasonable-- at least as personable and responsible as their IQ counterparts. Have a lot of dealings with them through services for our handicapped grand-daughter. But also CVS, etc.

Kylie said...

I'm not surprised to see that fat black women have good self-esteem. The self-esteem of many people of all races depends at least in part of how sexually desirable they feel themselves to be.

The relations between black men and black women are highly sexualized. I've seen reasonably attractive (by ghetto standards) black men play up to absolute whales, just because that's what they do. "How you doin', sugar? You lookin' FINE!" to some female (black or white) who could never get a white man to chase her unless he was named Ahab. It's just a feature of black communication. Of course, black men's appreciation pretty much begins and ends with signaling that they would like to f**k the female they're conversating with.

Which leads to the second factor. It's not as though the kind of competition for being indulged by their men that white women enjoy--or loathe, if they aren't getting it--exists among black women. I was the envy of my single white girlfriends last year when my husband insisted on paying for my trip to visit them--while he stayed home, took care of the pets and installed a laminate flooring in my study for me. This sort of indulgence just doesn't exist in the black community. A black woman's expectations are so low that her idea of being pampered is for the father of some of her children to drop by to get money from her and stay long enough to f**k her. I'm not kidding or exaggerating here.

And believe me, if a reasonably attractive white man catches the eye of a typical black woman, her self-esteem doesn't stand up to his response. My observation is that most black women are invisible to white men, the same way elderly or disabled people are. And white men, when forced to interact with black women, are courteous in the way people are when dealing with the elderly or disabled. It's the sort of courtesy founded on pity and limitted by distaste. I've seen more than one black woman who didn't have a chance with the white guy she liked simply crushed when that fact became too obvious for her to ignore.

In short, the experience of black women is limitted and their expectations low. No wonder their self-esteem is high. They literally don't know what they're missing.

P.S. I see Google's little joke is that we're all way out in left field now. Very funny.

Paul Mendez said...

Black guys like T&A. A thinner female without at least one of those attributes is not, I repeat not, gonna be the preference for a brother.

True dat, mofo!

Marc B said...

I've experienced the same type of service whenever I am in Memphis or other Southern cities with similar demographics. I've surmised that once blacks reach an awareness of their "strength in numbers", they barely go through the motions of what would be considered customer service bare minimums. It's less Southern inefficiency, more about passive aggressively sticking it to the man.

I noticed this trend after Memphis had it's first black mayor for a few terms. Prior to that, blacks were usually extremely jovial and pleasant to deal with in retail settings. Now there is almost no middle ground, with about 70% acting like they wish you would leave them be by barely acknowledging your presence, making almost zero eye contact, or speaking clearly. The other 30% are extremely personable and could school the rest of the workforce on going above and beyond.

Anonymous said...

"Any study where the subjects are asked to rate their "self-esteem" are utterly meaningless."

This is true, and context is very crucial. A person with an IQ of 150 working at MIT--with lots of people who are even smarter--may feel that he's not smart enough.

But some jiveass fool in da hood may think he's really smart cuz he can beat everyone in da cussin' game of 'yo mama this, yo mama that.'

Anonymous said...

Another thing... a lot of people who claim to lack self-esteem could be employing a kind of false modesty. It's like a beautiful model will say, "Oh no, I'm not all that good looking, blah blah" when in fact she knows she's a real babe.

Anonymous said...

IOW, black women aren't wrecking their health, starving themselves to fit in, like anorexic high-class white and Asian women.

Anonymous said...

Why Are Black Women Less Physically Attractive Than Other Women?” 

"And Why Are Asian Men Less Physically Attractive Than Other Men?". Maybe if Satoshi Kanazawa hadn't conveniently ignored this addendum he wouldn't have been suspended from his job?

not a hacker said...

I had an encounter with a young, slim and rather pretty black woman about a year ago in Berkeley. I was eating lunch at an outdoor bistro and she was an employee of a nearby store. She was smoking near me. There was a sign that said no smoking. I asked her to smoke elsewhere. She told me she wished her father was there so he could kick my ass.

Anonymous said...

nothing wrong with loving fatties. chubby chasers, unite!

Anonymous said...

Black guys like T&A. A thinner female without at least one of those attributes is not, I repeat not, gonna be the preference for a brother.

Ditto with Mediterranean and lower-class WASP/Nordic guys. It's mostly the middle-and-upper class WASPS who are attracted to stick like women. And it's the WASP women themselves who compete for height, thinness, and blondness.

Truth said...

"Of course, black men's appreciation pretty much begins and ends with signaling that they would like to f**k the female they're conversating with."

Whereas white men are pretty good at pretending it doesn't. Hahahah.

josh said...

Its amusing to read all these armchair scientists wondering why black women(and men for all o' that)should be having high self -esteem. Or at least higher than,uhm,us. Or Asians.Well sir,its just natural! What is the proper level of self esteem?? There is none. The black level is just as legit as the white level. And,no,its not a bulwark against the slings and arows of outrageous racism,lol. Thats just how they roll. Biologically. We just need to accept that. (And I grow increasingly worried about all this Navy Seal stuff.Theyre making appearances in romance novels now! Well-scrubbed,nice looking white women getting all sticky and gooey for Seals. (As opposed to SEAL,whose stock has fallen a bit lately.) You know the boys--oops,racist? Nope,I was talking about the kosher ones--at the White House are noticing,as no doubt many a cubicle dweller on this site has,that the Seals are,uhm,W-H-I-T-E.The boys dont like our kind getting that kind of attention. Are we going to re-enact a version of the famous conversation between JFK(who was Irish!) and some unnamed General,re the early astronauts,to wit: "Well uh very nice...but I uh dont see a negro ashtronaut." "Negro ash--I mean astronaut,sir?" "Yesh." "Well sir,we dont have one." "General?" "Sir?"........"Get one." Perhaps some black males will be bringin' dey high self esteem into the Seals.) B) pulchritudinous:"You must have missed "Baby Got Back..." That has GOT to be Truth. I recognize his style! And BGB was almost as important as "Walk This Way" in bringing rap to the fore.Where is Sir-Mix-A-Lot today, I wonder?

AmericanGoy said...

Black people in general have higher levels of self-esteem, in my experience.

This is backed by many sources.

http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/jan00/graylit012400.htm

http://williamcook.suite101.com/self-esteem-and-african-americans-a188773

Go and read the second link.

Highlight of the year quote (nay, of the decade!) from that article about the study:

"The outcomes surprised Crocker and Twenge. They learned that African Americans scored the highest in the self-esteem category, but ranked last in the area of Society’s Positive Regard for the group.

"The outcomes surprised Crocker and Twenge. They learned that African Americans scored the highest in the self-esteem category, but ranked last in the area of Society’s Positive Regard for the group."

Truth said...

"A black woman's expectations are so low that her idea of being pampered is for the father of some of her children to drop by to get money from her and stay long enough to f**k her. I'm not kidding or exaggerating here."

I certainly hope that you are kidding or exaggerating, or else you have been abducted by aliens!


http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/ageless-woman

Anonymous said...

"Of course, black men's appreciation pretty much begins and ends with signaling that they would like to f**k the female they're conversating with."

"Whereas white men are pretty good at pretending it doesn't. Hahahah."

With blacks, it's in the front of their minds; with whites, it's in the back. With Jews, it's somewhere in between.

Hunsdon said...

Anonydroid said:
But some jiveass fool in da hood may think he's really smart cuz he can beat everyone in da cussin' game of 'yo mama this, yo mama that.'

Hunsdon replied: It's called "the dozens"---at least it used to be.

Kylie said...

"With blacks, it's in the front of their minds; with whites, it's in the back. With Jews, it's somewhere in between."

No, I'd say with white and Jewish, there's actually room for other, non-sexual thoughts. Not so with black men.

I say this not only because it's what I've observed but also what I've experienced. As a plain and intelligent woman, I've had white and Jewish men tell me that though they don't find me attractive physically, they really enjoy my conversation. I've often had such men seek me out solely for the chance to talk about mutual--non-sexual--interests. Usually they are already involved with a woman who is "their type" physically. That's fine by me because unlike a lot of women, I enjoy the company of an intelligent man who has nothing to offer me besides good conversation.

I've had several commenters here who self-identify as white males compliment me on my comments. Surely not even the resident race man thinks that's because Kylie seems so damned hot that these guys are complimenting her opinions as a way of coming on to her.

Carol said...

I'm getting used to Google comments. It's readable but inconspicuous. But at first I thought the format had fallen apart.

Silver said...

Maya,

Any study where the subjects are asked to rate their "self-esteem" are utterly meaningless.

How good a person feels about herself, at any given moment, depends on her desires and expectations. So, if I expect more from life (and men) and desire that which is harder to obtain, my satisfaction with my ability to obtain that which I want will tend to be lower than that of a person whose standards might be lower than mine.


If this is what you think, then it's probably why they are researchers and you're a school teacher.

(a) The studies aren't designed to uncover how good a person feels at any given moment. If you knew anything about them you'd know this. Since you don't know this, why are you commenting on something you don't know about?

(b) Why is "self-esteem" in sneer quotes?

(c) Rating one's own feelings isn't "utterly meaningless." Provided you're aware of the limitations, it still provides you with insight into how various groups rate themselves.

MarcB,

I've surmised that once blacks reach an awareness of their "strength in numbers", they barely go through the motions of what would be considered customer service bare minimums.

One of the first things I noticed about blacks when I came to America was their shoddy customer service. This was in parts of socal and nevada where blacks where few and far between. (I'd have no trouble believing it's much worse where they predominate.)

I'm not very fussy about customer service. I've never asked to "speak to management." I think it's just that I came from a country where customer service is almost universally "very good." So it didn't take much to notice that black customer service in the US is almost universally "very poor." The only analog I can think of is stores owned and staffed by asian immigrants here. They have this vacant look about them, as though they're struggling to understand why you've walked into their shop. Heaven forbid you should ask them a question. Their attitude seems to be "you laik bai, you bai, no tok so much."

Maya said...

Silver,

Why would you quote me discussing general expectations in life, and then smugly tell me that these studies aren't intended to measure one's feelings at a given moment? Since I'm not sure at which exact point logic failed you, it's impossible for me to address your concerns.

It's true that I'm, but a lowly teacher. That doesn't change the simple truth that asking people to rate their feelings for the purposes of measuring their feelings is utterly useless. Feelings are stretchy concepts as it is. (What does it mean when a person ranks his/her depression level at 5?) Self-constructed identity, culture and a myriad of other factors will influence how a person will choose to answer these very arbitrary questions, even in the unlikely case that he or she decides to be completely honest. A sincere 14 year old Emo from the late 90s might see the word "confidence" and interpret it as "brutality, stupidity and lack of sensitivity". He will then rate himself as low on confidence to communicate his self-perceived depth, self-awareness and sensitivity.

Now, I distrust surveys as a general rule, but this one hasn't even been tested for validity nor reliability. Some of the questions are vague and misleading. That's obvious from the description and because the margin or error is given only for the participants' weights.

Btw, I don't know what credentials you have in the area of scientific research, but my last statistics professor found my distaste for self reported information (especially when feelings and vague opinions are concerned) to be a respectable point of view. I refuse to employ this method in my own research.

Tony said...

"IOW, black women aren't wrecking their health, starving themselves to fit in, like anorexic high-class white and Asian women."

No they're just packing on the pounds at McDonalds, Waffle House, and the local fried chicken joint.

Maya said...

Funny stuff. In this survey, out of the 4 groups BF, WF, BM and WM:

White women self-report as the least likely to date or consider marrying outside of their race.

White men self report to be the most likely to consider marrying outside of their race.

White men self-report more concern about racism in this country than white women do.

Black men self report to be more concerned with sexism in this country than black women do.

Anonymous said...

"IOW, black women aren't wrecking their health, starving themselves to fit in, like anorexic high-class white and Asian women."

No they're just packing on the pounds at McDonalds, Waffle House, and the local fried chicken joint.

Why can't more women (and men for that matter) have a healthy attitude toward eating, exercise, and weight, and avoid both extremes?

Anonyia said...

"I've surmised that once blacks reach an awareness of their "strength in numbers", they barely go through the motions of what would be considered customer service bare minimums."

Quite true. It gets bad enough around here sometimes that if you are white sometimes you will be completely ignored in lieu of black customers. They will just continue playing with their phones or laughing with each-other behind the counter. You literally have to speak up and demand recognition in order to get service. This was hard getting used to when I moved to a half-black city from a majority white one, where the 10 percent or so of blacks around gave just as good (maybe even better?) customer service as the local whites.

Truth said...

"Surely not even the resident race man thinks that's because Kylie seems so damned hot that these guys are complimenting her opinions as a way of coming on to her."

That's EXACTLY what I thought. I've always had an inkling that Kudzu Bob offered to come to where you are and pick you up to look at covered bridges, or some shit.

Maya said...

"Why can't more women (and men for that matter) have a healthy attitude toward eating, exercise, and weight, and avoid both extremes?"

I think most men and women do have normal attitudes when it comes to food.

There are more normal weight and overweight people than the severely underweight and the obese. It's hard to be perfectly in the golden middle. However, most moderately overweight people are, probably, just busy and stressed, not obsessed with greasy food. It takes just a couple of extra small snacks per day, while working overtime with no chance to visit a gym, to pack on 20 lbs in a year. And the rumors of the upper class white and Asian women starving and mutilating themselves have been highly exaggerated. The majority, simply, count calories, commit to a fitness program and care about the quality of their food.

Anonymous said...

And the weight adavantage allows black lesbian women to successfully gang up on a gay white man.

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:10 Get this March's Playboy then.

Anonymous said...

There's little incentive for black girls to go attention-whoring and starve themselves to death because being at the bottom of the attractiveness pole has many advantages AKA we don't care what you think bubba!.

Men don't look at you in a sexual way, tend to like you more as a friend and so you let yourself go. I mean sure you can impress yourself and be a thin chick too but it's all about loving yourself and being earth grounded. I like being a black girl. I'm invisible to most dudes (except a couple of black ones and a few strange men with black girl fetishes) and I'm generally not looked like a sex object. It's refreshing to be desexualized and just to be friends. I'm gonna eat more KFC and drink my favourite drinks.

Anonymous said...

Men are attracted to curves. Women (and gay men) are attracted to skin and bones, but not in a sexual way.

And it's obvious that fat women are curvier than skinny ones. But there can be too much of a good thing. The happy medium is thin enough to be healthy, but fat enough to attract men.

Anorexia is a misguided attempt for women/girls to gain status not among males, but other females.

Anonymous said...

There's little incentive for black girls to go attention-whoring and starve themselves to death because being at the bottom of the attractiveness pole has many advantages AKA we don't care what you think bubba!.

That's a load of crap. All people, regardless of race, have an interest in appearing attractive to members of the opposite sex. It has nothing to do with being on the bottom of any "pole." I think it's perfectly fine -- commendable -- not to care what people other races think of you, but to not care what people of your own race think is just nuts; that's no way to live.

(Any bleeding heart liberal a-holes reading this, the fault for feelings like those quoted above rests with you. If you keep insisting that race doesn't matter, some people -- even some black people -- are going to start taking you seriously -- to their own detriment.)

Truth said...

"I think it's perfectly fine -- commendable -- not to care what people other races think of you, but to not care what people of your own race think is just nuts; that's no way to live."

LMAO; Why are you so animated about this your lady's opinion?

Anonymous said...

I'm surprised that no one has brought up testosterone. Blacks, men and women, have higher levels of it, which leads to (well documented) higher self-esteem ... also negatively correlated with actual attractiveness in the case of women.

Tim Howells

Maya said...

"I'm surprised that no one has brought up testosterone. Blacks, men and women, have higher levels of it, which leads to (well documented) higher self-esteem ... also negatively correlated with actual attractiveness in the case of women.

Tim Howells"

Is that true? Black women tend to have big breasts and round butts, when they are in shape. Isn't that an indication of high levels of female hormones?