January 30, 2012

College admits cheating on SAT

From the NYT:
Claremont McKenna College, a small, prestigious California school, said Monday that for the past six years, it has submitted false SAT scores to publications like U.S. News & World Report that use the data in widely followed college rankings. 
In a message e-mailed to college staff members and students, Claremont McKenna’s president since 1999, Pamela B. Gann, wrote that “a senior administrator” had taken sole responsibility for falsifying the scores, admitted doing so since 2005, and resigned his post. 
The critical reading and math scores reported to U.S. News and others “were generally inflated by an average of 10-20 points each,” Ms. Gann wrote. For the class that entered the school in September 2010 — the most recent set of figures made public —the combined median score of 1,400 was reported as 1,410, she said, while the 75th percentile score of 1,480 was reported as 1,510.

This doesn't look like a lot, but note that Claremont McKenna is 9th among liberal arts colleges on the USN&WR list. In other words, it's right on the bubble of being Top Ten or not Top Ten, which is the kind of thing that means a lot for bragging rights at extended family dinners in San Jose and Seoul. So, every little bit helps. 

Is this some unique scandal, or is it only news because the college got caught? Does USN&WR impose rigorous audits upon data submitted to them by colleges? I doubt it. 

The president of Reed, that anti-affirmative action hippie college in Portland that is becoming a rare outpost of the old, weird America, has pointed out that lots of colleges game the USN&WR system by issuing anti-SAT rhetoric, denouncing the SAT as biased, so therefore they're going to allow students to apply without submitting SATs. This lets them let in athletes, quota kids, rich kids, and the like without it having any effect on the college's SAT scores in USN&WR. (The magazine routinely downgrades Reed in its rankings.)

By the way, I wrote an article about Pamela B. Gann and Claremont McKenna for The American Conservative in 2004: Hate Hoax.

62 comments:

Anonymous said...

Reed, anti-Affirmative Action? I poked around on their web site a bit and they look like standard-issue fans of the policy to me. The president even has a long article arguing for using explicitly remedial rationales for AA rather than cloaking it in "diversity" mumbo-jumbo necessary sneak past the court challenges.

Anonymous said...

Lots of law schools have been fudging LSAT numbers. Apparently Illinois Law gave false data for 6 years. Villanova had bad numbers too (not to mention a dean who patronized prostitutes...).

Anonymous said...

OffTopic

NYTime's "Room For Debate"...

""""
In a recent essay in The Times, Lawrence Summers, the former president of Harvard University, wrote about preparing American students for the future. In the essay, he said that international experience was essential, arguing that English’s emergence as the global language makes the investment in other languages less essential.

Does he have a point? Even though Americans aren’t as monolingual as you might think, is learning a language other than English a worthwhile investment?
""""

They have 6 people respond to that question and not one person backs up Lawrence Summers. I do like the "If you don't learn languages, learn accents" answer though.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/01/29/is-learning-a-language-other-than-english-worthwhile

eh said...

I guess a "senior" person did it because he knew how. They would've had to train a junior person. I guess there wasn't time for that.

bjdubbs said...

Reed's president wrote a comical "admission's essay" for the WSJ.

"Later, sitting in my dining room, all I could think was: I'm no hero. I hit a man with a baseball bat. A brown-skinned man. A poor man. Was this the "diversity" I had bargained for? This was the bat I had used growing up in relentlessly suburban, middle-class Lexington, Massachusetts, where diversity meant playing with a few Catholics and an occasional Jew. Six years ago, I had moved my family to Boston's South End, reveling in its economic and racial variety. Did I feel virtuous living there? Our son's school was a model of statistical integration: one-third black, one-third white, one-third "other." We met with neighbors on the multiracial council. Our boys played with black kids who lived down the block. The Latino guy across the street repaired our car. We sat on the front stoop on summer evenings and sipped Chardonnay while the world cruised by."

It gets worse from there.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124155396679688641.html

bjdubbs said...

There's plenty of contempt for languages in the mathematics-influenced social sciences. Summers isn't alone. I once met the US's foremost authority on Iranian politics, a kind of Kremlinologist of Iran. I asked him how long it took to learn Farsi. He didn't know a word, it wasn't worth the investment of time, he explained. He read the CIA translations of Iranian newspapers and newscasts, which was plenty.

morleysafer said...

It's made a lot of money for Mort Zuckerman; thanks to him we all learned Duke and USC are academically prestigious, though the law school rankings are the funniest of all. Milk that sucker for all it's worth.

p.s. US News claims they rank Reed on publicly available data (the college staff supposedly do not submit the questionnaire). Shouldn't they rank ALL of them on publicly available data? What about crime statistics? Johns Hopkins for instance.

morleysafer said...

Am seeking a catchy trade name for my "Zillow U." start-up. So far I've considered AlmaMatters, HBomb.tv, and Grottlesex.com, though I hope Morrissey's not lawyered up and the last one was merely an SEO play

Ed said...

I'm responding to the completely off-topic comment, which I think is frankly more interesting even than Reed College's affirmative action policy.

My personal experience with this is that my attempt to learn a foreign language at school was a failure, though with the advantage of hindsight alot of the problem was that my teachers were absolutely awful. But I've been able to pick up a working conversational knowledge of the language of some of the countries I've visited, as long as they speak a Romance or Germanic language (the one place where the effort was absolutely hopeless was Hungary, and Hungarians I have known have advised me not to bother trying to learn Hungarian). And I can speak my wife's language, which is not English, competently without any formal training.

Based on my experiences, my take is that language is much more of a utility than many people, particularly academics, seem to think. Its more akin to knowing how to repair a car than studying literature. If you absolutely need to learn a language, its not that difficult, after all small children do it, but its very hard to pick up in a formal classroom setting, and then you have the issue of whether the instruction itself is competent.

Now the United States is a continental country where historically most people didn't even hold passports (I've been told that there was an uptick in passport applications when they started being required to visit Canada). Most Americans don't even leave the United States! Even elite folks like Summers operate in a sort of bubble where everyone they encounter speak English, unless they actively seek to leave the bubble, which seems to be discouraged. So for practical purposes, Americans are better off concentrating on improving their knowledge of many other things than foreign languages. I guess this means I sort of agree with Summers, though at least for different reasons.

There is an argument that it is much easier to learn an language when you are young, but it seems that in this context "young" means "small child", ie kindergarten and the early grades. By the time foreign language instruction is actually offered, in the later grades, its too late. Its probably better to devote resources to other things in high school and find a way to make language instruction more available for adults to access when they need it.

John Mansfield said...

A freshman-year friend decided to try his luck with walk-on tryouts for our college's basketball team. An assistant coach went down the line of young men asking them their name and height. Everyone seemed to be adding an inch or two, so when the coach reached my friend he said, "When I came in I was 6'1", but I guess I must be 6'3" now." He got a dirty looks.

Anonymous said...

Academics get paid princely salaries for faculty and administrative jobs that are about as hard as a typical sophomore year at Cal State University, Chico. With all the time they have on their hands they can militate for diversity, volunteer as Obamabots, and raise uber-kiddies with stratospheric SAT scores and piano recitals at Carnegie-INTEL Hall.

Anonymous said...

baby boom generation: no right and wrong, everything's relative, hey man i don't need your rules...

really is anyone surprised that ethical standards have sunk, well , everywhere?

The baby boom generation is the most selfish, narcissistic, corrupt, greedy and destructive generation in american history.

With the exception of a few BB's like Steve S. i can't wait until they are gone..

Dean Wormer said...

Claremont McKenna was just taking the equivalent of the next logical step: optionally reporting of admitted students' SAT scores.

Quantitative metrics of ability, effort and merit like the SAT have long been under assault. They reduce diversity and diminish the competitiveness of children of the wealthy and powerful - the stated and unstated goals of admissions.

The admission form could be simplified by asking only two questions: (1) Your parents' and extended family's hard and soft assets and (2) your ethnicity.

Anonymous said...

How do they fudge numbers when the collegeboard.com lists the scores? And they know what the scores are because they issue them.

http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=3670&profileId=6

SAT reading mid 50: 640-740
SAT math mid 50: 670-740

ben tillman said...

Is this some unique scandal, or is it only news because the college got caught?

While I was in college elsewhere, we learned that Emory University's law school falsified its LSAT scores by excluding those of Black students.

helene edwards said...

explicitly remedial rationales for AA rather than cloaking it in "diversity" mumbo-jumbo

Don't you get it? There's nothing standard issue about that, because while it would still be opposed by some, at least it would be honest. The worst part about the "diversity" rationale are the lies, i.e. that blacks get low SAT scores because the tests are biased, and that seeding prestige campuses with blacks somewhow provides whites with a valuable "perspective." No, if they're there for any reason, it's to absorb white middle-class attitude and work ethic, to escape the ghetto mentality. No other reason. Reed's approach, assuming it exists, is the only one that permits this.

jody said...

well, it's also true that reed isn't a good college anymore. they've gone the same route as brown has. the administration at reed can correctly point out that other colleges game the system, but their college hasn't been good in decades now. it's gone way downhill.

jody said...

"Does he have a point?"

from dealing with people under 25 on the internet - i'm starting to agree with summers.

pervasive english media proliferation, in combination with the web, is ramming english into every yonugster's mind. it's pretty common now to for me to encounter people who are 25 and who simply grew up with so much english movies, television, videos games, and internet, that they learned it by near-immersion. the way many people simply "pick up" how to touch type on a keyboard now, without any lessons, since you're essentially forced to interface with a QWERTY device every day now for standard human societal requirements.

people who you would actually want to communicate with and who can't handle basic english, may, within a decade or two, become like people who can't operate basic computer equipment - obsolete fossils. relics of a previous time period. it will only be dumb people from other nations - minimum wage, no skill, fast food, factory line, or farm worker types who are completely monolingual in their native language.

i've slowed down on my korean - because every korean would rather email or text me in english. not only do they like to practice - IT'S FASTER. it's EASIER. it has higher information density. it's the more efficient language. japanese and korean speakers prefer english. go ahead. ask them. if they're honest, they'll tell you. writing in their language is a hassle. try texting in japanese. LOL! a quick switch to english is what usually happens.

Geoff Matthews said...

I work in institutional research, and I have never had any ranking organization audit our survey results.
I don't recall our reports for accreditation being audited either, nor with IPEDS. But I'm young.

Anonymous said...

Steve, colleges routinely lie about the average test scores of their incoming class. Law schools lie about this as well. Furthermore, law schools lie about the incomes of their alumni. Plenty of low end law schools have alumni that earn less than the average union plumber, but won't admit it.

"Law students have long known that grades are important in the job search. But a new study underscores just how important they are for long-term success as well. In fact, law school grades are far more important than the prestige of the school one attends, the study’s author’s state."

Details of the study are on the net, if you want to read the details, you should google the above paragraph.

This study is a good argument for a student to accept a full scholarship at a law school that is slightly beneath him instead of paying full freight at the best law school that accepts him.

The point is that over the long term, the income that you earn as a lawyer corresponds to the IQ you are born with combined with the consistency of your work ethic - ie your grades. The same exact skills that enable you to get great grades translate more or less in to income as a lawyer.
Now we all know exceptions to this rule, but the stats show that by and large grades correlate to income.

We all know plenty of law school alumni that make very little money, but this is not due to the lack of prestige of the school they went to but rather this is because these are people who lack either the IQ or the sustained work ethic that would enable them to get great grades and to produce great legal output for 60 plus hours a week


In my humble opinion if you really forced the law schools to crunch the numbers and report the truth, half the people now going to law school would get a report showing that due to their inherent lack of a genetically high enough IQ OR due to their lack of an inborn work ethic ("failure of marshmallow test") they were going to earn little money as a lawyer

Law school ONLY makes sense for people that have the ability to get great grades OR for a small number of people that have great rainmaker personalities

Better reporting of the facts will lead students to make better decisions.

Steve, by the way, I think that many of the readers of your blog are people with very high IQ who lack the work ethic or lack the motivation to put that IQ to work making a high income.

People forget that IQ is not enough, it is the focus and CONSISTENT work ethic that matters.

Hence, lawyer incomes correlating to GRADES to a much greater degree than lawyer incomes correlate to IQ

Anonymous said...

There was this gushing NYT article a while back about the president of HBCU Paul Quinn College in Texas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/us/new-leader-changing-paul-quinn-college-with-prose-and-patience.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all%3Fsrc%3Dtp&smid=fb-share

Check out claims about their SAT scores.

http://collegestats.org/college/paul-quinn-college/admissions

SAT 75th Percentile (Math) 760
SAT 75th Percentile (Critical Reading) 750
SAT 75th Percentile (Writing) 730

Wow!

http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=288&profileId=6

Middle 50% of First-Year Students
SAT Critical Reading:210 - 450
SAT Math: 230 - 440
SAT Writing: 240 - 480

The second set of scores is from the College Board, so they're probably accurate.
Where did those 700+ scores come from? Maybe some fudging by someone too stupid to make the fake numbers plausible?

Anonymous said...

Middle 50% of First-Year Students
SAT Critical Reading:210 - 450
SAT Math: 230 - 440
SAT Writing: 240 - 480


LOL. Those are really bad.

The lowest you can get on a given section is 200. So scoring 200 is like scoring 0. And the scores go by 10 point increments.

If 25% of the students are scoring below 210 on reading, that means they're scoring 200 i.e. 0. These students cannot read and comprehend basic reading material.

If 25% are scoring below 230 and 240 on math and writing, then they're effectively scoring 200 i.e. 0.

Baloo said...

Languages are hard to learn and hard to teach, so of course there's lots of incentive to declare them irrelevant. They're also hard to fudge, as it's pretty easy to check and see if the students have learned anything. Quite true that they shouldn't be taught centered on literature. Everything Ed said is true. The Army teaches languages pretty well, in my experience. Actually, the Army (and I mean all the military, really) teaches _everything_ very well, because it has discipline and incentive, which are not to be found in most educational circles.

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Anonymous said...

Collegestats aggregated info from 2007 IPEDS. There's really no reason to lie to IPEDS about test scores - they're not the ones ranking schools. However, they don't audit the data, and they ask a lot of questions, so many schools report incomplete or wrong data. Looking at Paul Quinn's reported SAT data over time, it's clear they're just not paying a lot of attention to it. From 2001-2002 to 2010-2011, the 75th percentile math scores reported are: 100, 530, 390, 435, 790, 450, 760, 590, 400, 470. (You access IPEDS at http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/datacenter/)

Svigor said...

"When I came in I was 6'1", but I guess I must be 6'3" now." He got a dirty looks.

Yes, you can tell if a man's normal (adds an inch), dishonest (adds two), or honest (adds zero) by his response to this question.

Svigor said...

Obamabots

Obamatons. Obamatons. WHY hasn't it caught on yet? :)

Anonymous said...

" is learning a language other than English a worthwhile investment? "

I want to learn Italian or French for fun. This way I can watch movies or read books and newspapers in the original language.

Unfortunately,these countries are less and less French or Italian. If I go to Italy, I want to see and talk to Italians, not Africans or Albanians.

Anonymous said...

"The Army teaches languages pretty well, in my experience. "

I know someone who went to the Army's language school in Monterrey , Ca and studied Hungarian, I think. She can't speak it.

"There is an argument that it is much easier to learn an language when you are young, but it seems that in this context "young" means "small child", ie kindergarten and the early grades"

You have to pick it up naturally. That is what products like Assimil or Rosetta Stone do. High School language is useless, unless it is taught like this.

articles said...

"Steve, by the way, I think that many of the readers of your blog are people with very high IQ who lack the work ethic or lack the motivation to put that IQ to work making a high income.

People forget that IQ is not enough, it is the focus and CONSISTENT work ethic that matters.

Hence, lawyer incomes correlating to GRADES to a much greater degree than lawyer incomes correlate to IQ"


And sometimes it's their ethics kicking in once they find out that the ends justifies the means in their chosen field. I imagine many a lackluster trial lawyer would've been great in some other specialty. What you're really describing is the personality that will do whatever it takes to win, scruples be damned, especially if everyone else behaves immorally to get ahead. Just as with college students, law students may like the process of learning more than they like praxis and would've been a better fit elsewhere career-wise. I had a similar experience upon discovering the field I'd found fascinating in high school had shifted in theoretical focus. This matters more to some people than others who are content to mold their value systems, conceptual frameworks, etc in a relativistic way.

"Actually, the Army (and I mean all the military, really) teaches _everything_ very well, because it has discipline and incentive, which are not to be found in most educational circles."

I've met 0 ex-military who came across as being as knowledgeable as a successful college student on a topic. The exceptions will be in those areas that aren't taught in academic settings. Even being more successful at teaching expressive language has its limitations. Inevitably the military can only teach in a piecemeal fashion, anathema to many of us. WRT language, what's more important is that the broader knowledge gleaned by pursuing a liberal arts education will make the person a faster study; this is because they will have extensive knowledge of history, culture or even economics that aids in comprehension.

These differences matter even more depending on what the "linguist's" job duties are. If someone were to translate newspapers then an academic knowledge of a language might be preferable to verbal fluency alone. I'm surprised no one mentioned that most people who study a foreign language in school get to a pretty high level of literacy and can often write much better than they speak. It's not as if they didn't learn anything. Furthermore, you're not likely to learn enough English by interacting online to function in an academic environment and definitely not to speak fluently. Besides, many people use translation software both ways so only appear to know someone else's language. This is probably causing some interesting distortions in meaning both ways as you might notice sometime in the comments here on iSteve.

ogunsiron said...

Anonymous said...
...
Looking at Paul Quinn's reported SAT data over time, it's clear they're just not paying a lot of attention to it. From 2001-2002 to 2010-2011, the 75th percentile math scores reported are: 100, 530, 390, 435, 790, 450, 760, 590, 400, 470. (You access IPEDS at http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/datacenter/)
----
I guess one of the sub-25th percentile students is taking care of reporting the scores .
Pathetic.

Foreign Expert said...

japanese and korean speakers prefer english. go ahead. ask them. if they're honest, they'll tell you. writing in their language is a hassle. try texting in japanese. LOL! a quick switch to english is what usually happens.

Jody, give me break. How many Japanese friends do you have? I have about a dozen and ONLY ONE sends me messages in English. The rest are absolutely incapable.

Reg C├Žsar said...

The baby boom generation is the most selfish, narcissistic, corrupt, greedy and destructive generation in american history.

--Anonymous the Ever-generous, Other-directed, Scrupulously Honest, Self-sacrificing and Wholly Constructive

Family issues here, perhaps?

So, are you of the Playboy-no-fault-divorce-Roe-deciding-decamp-to-Florida-Whoopie-cushion-humor-no-fault-auto-insuring-crush-anyone-who-questions-Social-Security 'generation' that preceded them, or the hip-hop-video-game-anal-cleft-exposing-'like'-in-every-sentence-crush-anyone-who-questions-gay-marriage 'generation' which followed?

Probably the latter, as those Boomer teachers neglected to teach the capitalization of proper nouns, e.g., 'American'.

Either way, you've supplied more evidence for my theory that, as with 'gender', any sentence with the word 'generation' is sure to be horsemanure.

cmcoct said...

Kerri F. Dunn, the prof who faked the hate-crime on CMC's college in 2004 was disbarred by the State of Louisiana in 2007 for a slew of offenses. Who saw that coming?

http://www.lasc.org/opinions/2007/07B0738.pc.pdf

jody said...

"Jody, give me break. How many Japanese friends do you have?"

a couple, but i can only go by what they tell me, and reading copies of texts and emails they forward, where 2 bilinguals have had a conversation. i do see them slip back and forth - but mainly only into japanese if they don't know a word in english. i speak like 20 words of japanese total so i personally am never in any kind of direct bilingual exchange with japanese speakers. shrug.

people who speak both languages "good enough" is what i'm talking about here - the native japanese/english "a decade or two now" people usually default to english when communicating with OTHER japanese native speakers, for efficiency reasons.

this isn't the first time i've seen this among bilinguals. that's common among english french speakers and english spanish speakers too.

japan is also a big first world nation with tons of it's own culture and stuff to do, so you could be right, most japanese citizens are never going to need learn foreign languages if they don't want to. they can stay in japan for their entire lives no problem. you don't have to learn english when your nation has 120 million people and it's own strong endogenous culture which is continously producing it's own interesting stuff.

if you don't live in such a huge nation with it's own super strong native culture which difracts the incoming english culture being projected outward from english speaking nations though...less chance you'll have the option of being so ensconced. so maybe you could say, there's still a few decent reasons to learn another language - but the list of languages you might want to learn to a reasonable degree of proficiency, has shrunk to about 5, and certainly no more than 10. probably no language with less than 100 million speakers is worth learning for practical purposes, and only for personal interest reasons. hence my korean.

David Davenport said...

Steve, by the way, I think that many of the readers of your blog are people with very high IQ who lack the work ethic or lack the motivation to put that IQ to work making a high income.

I take it that the author of that statement is very wealthy and successful.

elvisd said...

"There is an argument that it is much easier to learn an language when you are young, but it seems that in this context "young" means "small child", ie kindergarten and the early grades. By the time foreign language instruction is actually offered, in the later grades, its too late. Its probably better to devote resources to other things in high school and find a way to make language instruction more available for adults to access when they need it."

The TPRS method is the way to go for teaching foreign language. When I switched to it, my kids went from struggling and remembering nothing to passing college placement tests.

Truth said...

"i've slowed down on my korean - because every korean would rather email or text me in english. not only do they like to practice - IT'S FASTER."

Jody, let's be honest, you slowed down on your Korean because your ass is lazy.

spacehabitats said...

As an alum of another USN&WR top ten four year liberal arts college (Grinnell College '73) I found the article about "Hate Hoax" very interesting.

The navel-gazing, politically-correct hand-wring, WASP self-flagellating atmosphere of Grinnell seems to have become the norm.

I guess to make the top ten nowadays you have to add in educational experiences like pseudo hate crimes performed by psychopathic faculty members.

Vinteuil said...

@anonymous 6:03 p.m.:

"Unfortunately,these countries are less and less French or Italian. If I go to Italy, I want to see and talk to Italians, not Africans or Albanians."

Funny you should say that. I spent three weeks in Florence & Rome, last Summer, and five weeks in Rome, Naples & Sicily over the holidays - and one of the things that really struck me is that the whole country is absolutely *jammed* with Africans. "What on Earth are they all doing here," I kept asking myself.

On the plus side, they were generally very nice - and also very entrepreneurial, often making up a high proportion of the sellers in the ubiquitous street-markets.

On the minus side, one goes to Italy in hopes of immersing oneself in distinctively *Italian* culture - not only in the museums and churches, but also in the streets and by-ways. And I'm afraid that's being lost, forever.

Truth said...

"Funny you should say that. I spent three weeks in Florence & Rome, last Summer, and five weeks in Rome, Naples & Sicily over the holidays - and one of the things that really struck me is that the whole country is absolutely *jammed* with Africans."

Funny you should mention that; According to the site below, there are roughly 307,000 Sub-saharan African immigrants in Italy, a country with a population of roughly 60 million, about .5% of the population, or 1/200 people.

So it seems that "*jammed*" is a fairly relative term, highly colored by one's personal perspective on other things...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_immigrants_to_Italy

Maya said...

"i've slowed down on my korean - because every korean would rather email or text me in english. not only do they like to practice - IT'S FASTER."

Korean Hangul is completely phonetic and it's easier to read and write than Spanish, let alone English. Everyone who even begins to learn Korean, gains the ability to read perfectly within a couple of hours. Thus, written communication is swift and easy on the peninsula. It sounds like it's faster for the Koreans to email/text in English with YOU because you can't communicate in their language. In my experience, when I engage any Korean in their script, they respond in kind. When they don't, it's because i made no sense whatsoever.

Maya said...

"On the plus side, they were generally very nice - and also very entrepreneurial, often making up a high proportion of the sellers in the ubiquitous street-markets."

Did they fold their cardboard tables with merchandise attached and step into dark alleys each time a police car passed by? That part entertained me each time I shopped for CDs and souvenirs.

Dutch Boy said...

How 'bout that - SCHOOLS are cheating on tests!

CJ said...

Great catch by cmcoct on that Kerri F. Dunn disbarment in Louisiana. The key data: "... her criminal convictions for insurance fraud, filing a false police report, and shoplifting ..."

Anonymous said...

"On the minus side, one goes to Italy in hopes of immersing oneself in distinctively *Italian* culture - not only in the museums and churches, but also in the streets and by-ways. And I'm afraid that's being lost, forever."

I'm anon 6:02. I am glad I got to see Italy in the 80's before it changed. I was there 10 years ago and didn't notice many immigrants either. I saw only 3 black people, all on trains.

"Funny you should mention that; According to the site below, there are roughly 307,000 Sub-saharan African immigrants in Italy, a country with a population of roughly 60 million, about .5% of the population, or 1/200 people. "

That's a lot.I wonder how many are illegal? I saw on the Net some guy from Cameroon complaining that Italians hired Italians over him. Shouldn't they? What's he even doing there. He should go back to Cameroon so he can fit it.

The point of living in or going to Italy and the like is to be around Italians. I felt more at home in Italy in the 80's than I do in the US now. Even if I could move to Italy, why would I, since it is becoming just like any other Western multicultural country?

Truth said...

" Even if I could move to Italy, why would I, since it is becoming just like any other Western multicultural country?"

You can move to Vladivostok.

Anonymous said...

Troofie, don't ya think the Africans in Italy are "officially" counted in the same manner as your recently-arrived ESL neighbors?

Mr. Anon said...

"Truth said...

Funny you should mention that; According to the site below, there are roughly 307,000 Sub-saharan African immigrants in Italy, a country with a population of roughly 60 million, about .5% of the population, or 1/200 people."

From the article to which you linked:

"Immigrants from Africa officially residing in Italy in 2009 numbered about 932,000 residents.[1]"

And it isn't possible that there are MORE africans in italy than the number who are "officially" there?

"So it seems that "*jammed*" is a fairly relative term, highly colored by one's personal perspective on other things..."

Or there are more than the government admits to, and they are concentrated in large cities, and particularly in those areas which tourists frequent.

But then, your posts are always colored by YOUR perspective on things.

Mr. Anon said...

"Anonymous said.....

Steve, by the way, I think that many of the readers of your blog are people with very high IQ who lack the work ethic or lack the motivation to put that IQ to work making a high income."

Anonymous, I think that many people who post as "anonymous" are registered sex offenders who live in half-way houses and have poor personal hygiene.

That's what I think.

Truth said...

"Troofie, don't ya think the Africans in Italy are "officially" counted in the same manner as your recently-arrived ESL neighbors?"

The Italian census is not one of my areas of knowledge.

Truth said...

""Immigrants from Africa officially residing in Italy in 2009 numbered about 932,000 residents.[1]"

Yeah, but according to that same article, the other 600,000+ are from North Africa; I.e., chicks you run around trying to dishonor your paternal heritage with.

Truth said...

"But then, your posts are always colored by YOUR perspective on things."

Of course they are, Anon, but here's the issue:

I'm...smart...enough...to...admit...it.

Truth said...

"Anonymous, I think that many people who post as "anonymous" are registered sex offenders who live in half-way houses and have poor personal hygiene.

That's what I think."

Does that mean the two clauses are mutually exclusive?

Anonymous said...

"And it isn't possible that there are MORE africans in italy than the number who are "officially" there?"

I am reading the book In Pursuit of Italy and the author states there are unofficially 20,000 Chinese in Prato, Italy, a town of 186,000, while the govt states there are only 10,000. It's unimaginable. This is Tuscany? I don't understand this world. What are they doing there? I'll bet Italy could have gotten many people of Italian ancestry to move there if they asked.

Mr. Anon said...

"Truth said...

""Immigrants from Africa officially residing in Italy in 2009 numbered about 932,000 residents.[1]"

Yeah, but according to that same article, the other 600,000+ are from North Africa;"

1.) You originally cited this article, not me.

2.) The article actually said that the other 600,000 were from north and northeast africa. "Northeast Africa", given Italy's history - probably means Somalis. I.e., a lot of those 600,000 people are indeed black africans, even if not central africans.

3.) Again, these are official figures (or rather "official" figures taken from a Wikepedia article) - there's nothing that says they are correct.

"Truth said...
The Italian census is not one of my areas of knowledge."

The category "not one of "Truth"'s areas of knowedge" is so broad as to have little descriptive power.

"Truth said...
I'm...smart...enough...to...admit...it."

Right. Smart. Smart, as in "believes in the existence of water-fueled cars" smart.

Anonymous said...

One of the comments stated Claremont Mckenna got caught cheating. This is not correct. President Gann reported the SAT inflation to US News after information from a tipster lead to an internal investigation. See the difference? The Dean of Admission acted in a stupid and immoral way but president Gann in my opinion did everything right. Her only mistake was to trust a long time college employee.