August 17, 2011

Is he really gay?

UPDATE: Sorry, I originally had this post linking to the second page of my new column. That's fixed now.

My new Taki's Magazine column is up. It's the first of a two part series:
Granted, I am as interested as anybody else in gossip about whether or not various famous male celebrities are secretly homosexual. But I’m also interested in the more statistical question: Overall, how many of them really are gay? 
I don’t know. So I’ve been trying to think through the possible explanations for the scant data we have. In this two-part series, I’ll lay out the potential scenarios, all of which are likely true to some extent. I’ll conclude next week with a rather disturbing possibility that doesn’t get much press coverage, perhaps because it would violate the media’s current Prime Directive of portraying gays solely as powerless martyrs.

Read the whole thing there.

77 comments:

SF said...

On CNN, Don Lemon is out and Anderson Cooper is closeted. There seems to be an awful lot of gay emphasis stories on that channel that most people just aren't that interested in

EYE OF HORUS said...

I would bet that most Hollywood stars that are male are also gay.
Sure, there's Tom Cruise, Val Kilmer, Richard Gere, and the usual suspects, but also the fact that even married men in Hollywood don't have any kids -until recently ala Michael Jackson.
I'd be willing to say that 80-90% of the men in Hollywood are gay...

Anonymous said...

Yes, Obama is really gay

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure of the 19th century view within British medicine, but my impression is that there was
a category of what we would call
"hard wired" "programmed" persons who had been born inverts/perverts and then a larger category of persons whose devotion to lust made homosexuality a parsimonious means to that aim. A moral issue clearly would pertain to this larger category. Relevant?

Anonymous said...

Francis Galton advanced the remarkable notion that perhaps dogs could be trained to diagnose
diseases /physiological abonormalities, etc. I suppose it would be a matter of just bringing dogs in contact with a particular diorder (say, peptic ulcer ) and reinforcing them in its presence and then, when they are "medically trained", letting them seek reinforcement within a broad random range of human body odors by smelling out persons with peptic ulcers and getting their doggie M&M's (some false positives could file suit against the dogs ). I don't know how efficacious this might be, but it might be damn dramatic. How far could this "be extended" regarding modes of homosex? Take it from here, Steve.

Currahee said...

As an LA resident formerly in the real estate biz, I can tell you that entertainment connected gays comprise a massive conspiratorial influence on all aspects of that business and many others locally including real estate.

This is exactly the sort of statement that can't be proven and would be vociferously and vigorously (need I add hysterically) denounced.

Nonetheless, it is true and everyone in the area knows it. Google "Hollywood gay mafia" for a strart; but keep it close if you ever want to have lunch in this town again.

Cheers,

-C

Anonymous said...

The true test is not whether he plays golf, but how often he mentions his mother.

Currahee said...

Re. Obama gay:
During the '08 election there was the normal amount of such speculation (google:hillbuzz.com). None of it was convincing.

However, it did get me thinking. Goes like this.

-Obama, good looking black hipster Dem pol working the Chicago-Springfield axis.

-Hordes of hottie liberal poon swooning to clamp their legs around a "safe" accessible black.

-Aunt Jemima at home.

Yet, not a hint of scandal. Doesn't compute.

Regards,
C.

Kolya said...

Steve, there is only one flaw in this whole theory, and that is the existence of the

Rusty Staub Foundation Celebrity Chefs and Friends Golf Tournament

(no kidding)

Anonymous said...

Does he reek with soap, cologne, and shaving cream? If not, he's probably not gay.

Kolya said...

Or maybe the exception proves the rule...

rapsco said...

Sorry to rain on the speculation parade, but I don't buy that a whole bunch of celebrities could hide their gayness from the world in the modern age of ubiquitous cameras. If most of Hollywood really were gay, it'd be all over YouTube (and a few have been outed this way, admittedly); these people can't even go to the grocery store without being photographed.

dearieme said...

Oh look, two topics that bore me silly, showbiz and poofs.

John said...

my impression is that there was
a category of what we would call
"hard wired" "programmed" persons who had been born inverts/perverts and then a larger category of persons whose devotion to lust made homosexuality a parsimonious means to that aim.


Robert Graves: "For every one born homosexual, at least ten permanent pseudo-homosexuals are made by the public school system" (although he goes on to say that "nine of these ten as honourably chaste and sentimental as I was")

ELVISNIXON.com said...

ESPN claims that LA Dodger Glenn Burke, who was Tommy Lasorda's son "Spunky" Lasorda's sexual partner, was a)inventor or the "high five" b) first out of the closet MLB player and c) died of AIDS along with "Spunky" as a consequence of Tommy Lasorda's "homophobia

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/6813042/who-invented-high-five

RKU said...

Well, it seems to me that the whole thing seems very plausibly. All we need to assume is that (male) homosexuality is strongly correlated with enjoyment of to singing/dancing/acting and generally being a dramatic center of attention or entertainment, which is an aspect of the traditional stereotype. Just as mathematicians tend to be people who like mathematics, actors will tend to be people who like...acting.

My strong impression is that the rate of female homosexuality among prominent Hollywood actresses is very much lower, which is exactly what we would predict based on personality divergences.

One very interesting speculation I heard decades ago is that very prominent male actors who are *not* gay are enormously more likely to attempt to branch out into directing or producing once they have the industry clout to do so, and this is a strong indicator that they are "straight." When you think of the very prominent actors who've later become directors, this seems to generally fit.

Anonymous said...

Steve, if you want to have world class gaydar there is no other way around it other than to be both intelligent and exceptionally good looking.

Why? Because if you are routinely the best looking guy in the room then as night follows day, you will get homos cracking on to you like a porch light attracts insects.

When you are young and naive, you think that some men approach you and want to be your friend just because they like you. As you get older and the more forward ones start making excuses to touch you (e.g. several unnecessary handshakes, touching your leg to make a point) or even proposition you, you start putting two and two together. Or they eventually admit to being gay, but never have the guts to proposition you.

In some cases, they will use positions of trust and authority to sexually abuse. Ever wanted to know why some people are rabid homosexual haters (so-called "homophobes") but it's not clear why? Hollywood would have you believe that it's because of latent homosexualism. This is bull****. The much more likely explanation is because they were once abused by a homo, hate everything the abuser stands for, but don't want to admit to the world that they were forced to engage in a degrading act.

Even just being lied to by homosexuals may be enough to create the hatred. e.g. promising something lucrative, or that they'll take you to somewhere that has really hot women etc. Like spies, there are some who will use any one of MICE in an attempt to get what they want (Money, Ideology, Coercion, Extortion.)

It is this ability to get continuous (and highly unwanted, at least for me) training in the positive ID of crypto-gays after observing their prior behavior that gives good looking guys a huge edge in the gaydar stakes. Especially when coupled with the payoff that if you are good at identification, you will be able to see them coming and avoid them.

Eventually you keep building experience until you become an expert gay profiler; spotting the mannerisms, appearance and any manner of little tell that gives the game away.

"But he's got a family and kids!", I am used to hearing. Somehow people think homosexuals are somehow precluded from having a functioning reproductive system, or are precluded from wanting children of their own, or don't have parents that are pressuring them to have kids. However, it is usually the case that homosexuals will choose more mannish women as wives and girlfriends. It's as close to what they want as is socially acceptable. So look for that sign.

jody said...

playing off the previous post about rock music, several years ago i began to ask myself the question, where have all the gay musicians gone? quickly off the top of my head i can think of several major musicians from the past who were gay. elton john, freddie mercury, rob halford. but i'm scratching my head to come up with one who first showed up in the 00s.

is it just the general decline of popular music? (please, it's totally in decline. no arguments about this obvious and extremely evident fact).

or were gay musicians a british thing? those guys i listed were all british, and the british are notoriously made fun of as "faggy brits".

and somebody in duran duran had to be gay. now who was it?

anony-mouse said...

I wonder how many of the officially gay celebrities (eg Nathan Lane or Jodie Foster) are secretly het?

Anonymous said...

"Gay as a French Horn'. Funny.

Usually its Gays who are absolutely certain that Handsome Old actor X was "really" Gay despite any evidence of any kind.

I think its more wish fulfillment than anything. Plus, Gays like to fantasize and gossip. Just like Chuck Heston.

Yep, Moses/Ben-Hur was Gay as a French Horn.

Anonymous said...

BTW, I heard from a Gay in college - just before Hudson announced he was sick - that he'd been to a "Gay Party" at Rock's house.

I thought it was a joke. Big Strong Rock Hudson, Doris Day's love interest, a fairy? 'Couldn't be. Gays acted like Charles Nelson Reilly or Liberace.

My mom couldn't believe it either. But I guess "All in Family" was right.

Anonymous said...

Corey Feldman says Hollywood is run by pedophiles:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/12/corey-feldman-pedophilia-is-hollywoods_n_925287.html

"Former child-star Corey Feldman is making some shocking claims in a new interview with ABC's Nightline.

The 40-year-old actor, who starred in hit films in the 1980s like "The Goonies" and "Stand By Me," told Nightline that the biggest threat to children in show business is something that just isn't talked about -- pedophilia.

"I can tell you that the number one problem in Hollywood was, and is, and always will be pedophilia. That's the biggest problem for children in this industry... it's all done under the radar. It's the big secret," he said.

Feldman said he was surrounded by pedophiles when he was 14-years-old and didn't realize until he was older just what these "vultures" were and what they wanted. Feldman says it was these people who abused both him and close friend and troubled teen actor Corey Haim, who died last year at the age of 38.

"There is one person to blame in the death of Corey Haim, and that person happens to be a Hollywood mogul -- and that person needs to be exposed but unfortunately I can't be the one to do it," he said."

Gc said...

In Finland you hear stories about our very left liberal woman president (she was at one time the president of the country`s biggest gay rights group) and her husband (her former neighbour whom she married after the elections).
I wouldn`t be surprised if this whole thing is supressed by our media. The real secrets are there, in leftist and liberal politics.
It`s also typical that an iconic sport star cheats his wife more than Tiger Wood`s ever did, but you will never read it from the presses and if Tiger`s wife had not freaked out, most people would not know anything.

Anonymous said...

Barry being gay cannot be argued. He became POTUS without a single non-fictional real life female lover coming out of the woodwork in the 2008 campaign.

Case closed for chrissakes.

Anonymous said...

"Aunt Jemima at home.

Yet, not a hint of scandal. Doesn't compute."

The media may well be covering for him.

Anonymous said...

"Oh look, two topics that bore me silly, showbiz and poofs."

Haha, exactly.

Who cares?

Anonymous said...

You know who else was Gay? John Wayne. Kirk Douglas, Burt Lancaster. Paul Newman, Robert Redford and Lee Marvin.

Fairies, Pansies and Sissies, everyone.

Buddy, Buddy pictures, my ass. And Lee Marvin? He secretly started that Palimony suit to cover up his affair with Clint Eastwood.

All of them, queer as a three dollar bill.

Anonymous said...

The biggest Pedophile in Hollywood history? Julie Andrews.

Mary Poppins, Sound of Music, all a front for her pedo behavior.

Kylie said...

"Steve, if you want to have world class gaydar there is no other way around it other than to be both intelligent and exceptionally good looking."

What better reason could one have for wanting to be both intelligent and exceptionally good looking?

Anonymous said...

Is John Travolta gay?

stari_momak said...

I think 'gay' is misused here. To me 'gay' is indeed a lifestyle, where as (allegedly) homosexual but closeted men are simply people with homosexual tendencies.

Homosexuality is not like being 'African American'. There is a strong genetic/biological component -- twin studies show that. But from what I've read, given a gay twin, the probability the other twin identifies as gay is only 50%. So something else is happening -- probably both experience same sex attraction, but it takes a conscious will to act on that attraction, and indeed celebrate it, to be 'gay'.

Anonymous said...

I work in Hollywood.

Richard Gere=straight.

Travolta=supergay

Cruise=gay tendencies, but in denial even from himself

Jamie Foxx= bisexual.

Will Smith and Jada Pinkett Smith= Scientologist bisexual swingers

Brad Pitt= uberstraight

Matt Damon=ditto

Clooney= same

Matt Bomer from White Collar=supergay

Jeremy Renner= unclear.

Bryan Singer=mostly gay but also dates hot women.

Steve Sailer said...

Nah, we've gone over this before, and I think it has been pretty well established by now that the white girlfriend in Dreams from My Father is real.

Grizzlie Antagonist said...

Rusty Staub? Gay? I couldn't say.

One of the best 300 ballplayers of all time? OF ALL TIME?

No.

Certainly, he's somewhere above the 50th percentile of those who have played the game.

But probably not even in the top 1000.

Anonymous said...

Yes,Jamie Foxx is homosexual maybe leaning bi

Jennifer Aniston and Sarah Michelle Geller??

The problem is homosexuals will claim everyone from Abraham Lincoln and George Washington to Neil Armstrong and Linus Pauling as homosexual.

They NEVER seem to mention Ernst Rohm or Herman Goering.

Time/Life used to run a commercial for their Third Reich series and they advertised the disturbing attributes of Nazi leaders and they specifically mentioned Goering as a homosexual

I wonder why that has disappeared

Anonymous said...

"Oh look, two topics that bore me silly, showbiz and poofs."

Haha, exactly.

Who cares?
***********************************

Actually, I think the topic is quite interesting. I always think male homosexuality is interesting as it is so un-Darwinian. I am very curious as to its cause.

And because I think its etiology is bewildering, I think it also interesting to ask if whatever it is that makes men gay also makes many of them interested in the arts or talented in the arts because of some biological reason or simply because historically, since actors were often ne'er-do-wells or social outcasts traveling from town to town, those who were "different" were welcomed into the fold.

Are gays actually more likely to be talented in the arts than straights or does it just seem that way? Are they more likely to pursue careers in the arts? than straights? I've often thought of all the very talented straight kids in drama in high school. Perhaps they were less likely to chase a dream of making a living in the arts because, as straights, they presumed marriage and children were in their future. Looking realistically at the strong odds against their being able to achieve success in that field *and* be successful raising a family, maybe straights are less likely to give that career a shot. A gay male might have less to lose in pursuing the unlikely or improbable.

Anyway, while these specifics are not the focus of Steve's "Is he really gay?" I do find the topics of gays and the link with arts/drama/Hollywood quite interesting.

Lucius Vorenus said...

Kylie: What better reason could one have for wanting to be both intelligent and exceptionally good looking?

I assume that you're trying to make a joke [although I'm not quite sure what the joke is supposed to be].

But I've spent my entire life dealing with EXACTLY the same phenomenon that the Anonymous was talking about.

I can vouch for [pretty much] every single word he wrote - it spells out my life experience to a "T".

PS: And I don't doubt the Corey Haim stuff for a second. I just wish he had the gonads to name names [which means he must be really scared - not just for his career, but maybe even for his life].

PPS: And yes, gays cluster at the same sorts of "rent-seeking" chokepoints in any institution as do, well, that other, ah, protected minority group which dominates Hollyweird along with the gays.

As an example, in most major hospitals nowadays, all the upper tiers of nursing management are pwned by the lesbians.

And I imagine that much the same thing is probably becoming [rapidly] increasingly more true of the military - the Pentagon is precisely the sort of bureaucracy that the gays would flock to [like flies on ****] if only they were given half a chance.

Anonymous said...

"There is a strong genetic/biological component -- twin studies show that. But from what I've read, given a gay twin, the probability the other twin identifies as gay is only 50%. So something else is happening -- probably both experience same sex attraction, but it takes a conscious will to act on that attraction, and indeed celebrate it, to be 'gay'."


No. I don't think there's any study that provides evidence in non-concordant pairs that "both [twins]experience same sex attraction".

Ray Sawhill said...

Anonymous writes:

"Are they more likely to pursue careers in the arts? than straights? I've often thought of all the very talented straight kids in drama in high school. Perhaps they were less likely to chase a dream of making a living in the arts because, as straights, they presumed marriage and children were in their future. Looking realistically at the strong odds against their being able to achieve success in that field *and* be successful raising a family, maybe straights are less likely to give that career a shot. A gay male might have less to lose in pursuing the unlikely or improbable."

I think that's exactly right.

And I think there's an additional angle, which is that gays (at least gays who are frank with themselves about being gay) have already made a big "I'm not leading a 'normal' life" kind of commitment. An arts life, by comparison to declaring oneself gay, is a pretty mild form of oddness. So, for a gay, leading an arts life is no big deal. Straights, by contrast, are always painfully aware that they could bail out of the craziness of the arts and lead a "normal" life.

That creates a different internal climate, with many gays OK with the nuttiness of the arts life and seeing it as a lifetime commitment, and many straights in the arts half-consumed with misgivings and resentments about their lives and careers. So the gays in the business are often able to focus 'way more of their talent, energy and concentration on their careers than the straights are.

In the arts and the media, there's nobody as clear-eyed, smart and dynamic as a really together gayguy. I say this admiringly, by the way. I can't compete with 'em, but I've certainly learned a lot from them.

Eric said...

I wonder how many of the officially gay celebrities (eg Nathan Lane or Jodie Foster) are secretly het?

Some of the women, probably. The men, not so much. I always suspected Anne Heche was dating Ellen Degeneres to get publicity for her own career, so her switch back to men wasn't a surprise.

Anonymous said...

Rick Santorum?

Londoner said...

Stari momak makes a good point - not every homosexual man is necessarily "gay". If a man appears and behaves like an ordinary straight, then he is ipso facto not "gay", even if his preference is for men rather than women. Also, some homosexuals are celibate by choice (perhaps that us "homophobia" in its real, literal sense). Steve wrote about "why lesbians aren't gay" years ago and logically you could extend the meme to homosexual males. Of course, none of the above fits in at all with the prevailing narrative de nos jours, though.

Easy to believe the paedo mafia allegations (athough maybe "ephebo" would be more accurate) - look at Polanski and the way he was allowed to carry on his career (albeit outside Hollywood - though I'm sure Hollywood woud have been happy to keep him had the law not - for once - intervened. Socal is awash with porn and decadence and it'd be a stretch to believe that there aren't rich and powerful denizens of Hollywood who indulge their less than wholesome desires with impunity. And the fact that that cadre is protected for, uh... other reasons must help too.

Londoner said...

Re: the causes of (male) homosexuality - the chimera hypothesis, whereby stronger male foetuses outcompete weaker female foetuses (i.e. maternal twins) in the womb, cause them to die off and then absorb/cannibalise them, thus becoming feminized, is pretty fascinating. No idea how plausible it really is though.

Actually, I may have read about it on here, come to think of it - can't remember now.

Anonymous said...

There's no need for homosexual entertainers to put on a front. In Hollywood it's the heterosexuals who are in the closet.

Anonymous said...

I tend to think many of these guys are probably gay...

The Gossip Columnist by Bill Dakota

http://www.zimbio.com/150+BISEXUAL+ACTORS/articles/13/Those+150+bisexual+actors+missed+few+though

Anonymous said...

Jody sez, "and somebody in duran duran had to be gay. now who was it?"

My money was always on Nick Rodes (keyboards), because... well.... just look at him. However, he did marry (a woman) and has one daughter. Here's the run down:

Simon Le Bon (vocals) - engaged to a (female) model, married another (female) model, 3 kids
Nick Rodes (keys) - divorced, 1 daughter
John Taylor (bass) - engaged to Danish (female) model, married some other chick, 1 daughter, divorced, married the chick who founded Juicy Couture
Andy Taylor (guitar) - married (to a woman), couldn't find info on kids
Roger Taylor (drums) - married(to women) twice, total of 4 kids

None of this is irrefutable proof negating the poof, but it just doesn't fit the pattern.

Dahinda said...

You mentioned Dick Butkis as somebody that you never heard gay rumors about. That is ironic because when I was growing up there was always the Dick Butkus is gay rumor. The person telling it heard from some guy that Dick had so and so as a boy friend or hit on somebody they knew.

Dahinda said...

There is a famous story that is popular in Chicago about the time that Raymond Burr came on to a couple of the Chicago Bears from the 80's in Los Angeles. It went so far as to become a recurring feature on a local comedy radio show. The guy who's show it was could imitate Raymond Burr and always made double entedres over sultry music.

Charlotte said...

"Nah, we've gone over this before, and I think it has been pretty well established by now that the white girlfriend in Dreams from My Father is real"


!. Settled is it?

It's not too hard to find a real white girl and attach her to B.O.

B.O.'s seminal life events have been imaginatively concocted from any number of cultural zeitgeists planned to play well in Liberal-tropolis.
However, is she as "real" as the degree he supposedly got at Columbia when private investigators (hired by a Harlem minister who doesn't like BO at all) proved in a New York court in May 2009 (ignored by the MSM of course) that BO never was a student at Columbia. Oh, he may have showed up occassionally. One or two people have come forward claiming to have had a Barry sighting while at Columbia. Maybe he was just being the "Invisible Man" since he was so oppressed?

So no, it sure hasn't been established for me. Still, I don't care if he prefers parrots. His private doings are last thing I have any desire to contemplate. It's his public sub-text of contempt for this country and Americans in general that arouses a visceral revulsion in this once-liberal, non-party-belonging commenter.

Now Hollywood celebrities OTOH-- There's just way too much hetero-hanky-panky going on Hollyweird for me to believe they are only faking it. I think they get a bum rap on this issue.

Anonymous said...

One would hope that the FBI, for
instance, in its sophisticated psychological profiling has a framework for noting observed biographical facts (e.g., amount and nature of high school dating; expressive movement of the hands;
overt homosexuality in a near ancestor, manifest clothing preferences, footwear characteristics, etc ) and making an estimate re homosexual procilivity that would have, what?, a 70% reliability ? What is consistently reported about BHO's relevant acts and relevant omissions from adolescence onwards, certainly is suggestive of a lack of heterosexual impulses and behaviors. His mother is interesting to behold in this context. From what is reported consistently, she went through high school as observed by her cafe pseudointellectual friends--few in number, BTW--as being asexual and then WHAM, she turns up pregnant and "married"(?) to a Kenyan grad student in Hawaii. There is, moreover, scant record, if any, of anything resembling a courtship or flirt phase--the whole matter is more like a 17 year old simply presenting herself to sire? She had reportedly developed a fascination with a film she saw (when visiting Chicago) at age 15 that was a non-porn presentation of sexual fascination by white girls for Black guys. This sort of atypical 300% hetero enthusiasm by young otherwise asexual females is very frequently a sign of underlying lesbianism seeking to deny deny deny itself. There appears no indication of any overt sexual involvement after her separation from Soweto. So all the years of a woman's very glandular 30's are a blank we are to assume. The ethos of the high school she attended in Seattle certainly would have been conducive to a good bit of overt hetero expression-- had anything genuine been there for "winking and smiling". Human sexuality being normally an extension of social interactions, it is relevant to note that from many observers , BHO appears not to get along with women nearly as easily as he does with men and reportedly there is a consistent whisper strand about this from his HLR days , his corporate days, on. As to a "white girlfriend" having existed or not--isn't the question whether any such relationship had a normal sexual vibe, even if not cosummated? Among closet homosexuals (and most politicos have chosen to be closeted ) frequent reference to a female sexual partner is such a typical contrivance that in the larger context of what is known about BHO, this "white girl" having been a "girl friend" must be accorded a sort of Necker Cube "existence", at best.

Fraternal Twin Homosexuals said...



Re: the causes of (male) homosexuality - the chimera hypothesis, whereby stronger male foetuses outcompete weaker female foetuses (i.e. maternal twins) in the womb, cause them to die off and then absorb/cannibalise them, thus becoming feminized, is pretty fascinating. No idea how plausible it really is though.


What are the homosexual rates of males who are fraternal twins with females (or visa-versa)?

That may lend some support (or not) to this chimera hypothosis.

Former Single Nerd said...

In the arts and the media, there's nobody as clear-eyed, smart and dynamic as a really together gayguy. I say this admiringly, by the way. I can't compete with 'em, but I've certainly learned a lot from them.

Single straight beta nerds in high tech are more clear-eyed, smart and dynamic than any other group I've met.

From them we get nearly all the fruits of modern society from the computers to the Internet to Google and far beyond.

Anonymous said...

RKU and Ray Sawhill are right on the money.

I believe the sexual spectrum hypothesis, that there aren't two completely separate types (even though there are only two types of genetalia) so that an individual falls somewhere between uber-straight and uber-gay. Personally, I am moderately straight male, highly attracted to women, slightly attracted to men (and by that I mean it doesn't normally pop up, but every once in a while if I see a super-beautiful effeminate dude, like say, Jude Law or Prince, I get a twinge), but have little to no compulsion to act on homo attraction. In a totally free sexual world, though, I suppose I would have experimented, but in reality, fears and inhibitions prevented that. I don't mind saying this, because unlike most homophobes and conservatives, I didn't receive that childhood training that it wa necessary to establish my hetero sexual cred in order to make it in life, I didn't care what anyone thought. When I sang in school choir I went balls out, but I also noticed how the more macho boys in choir deliberately avoided trying too hard...and yes, I had a very strong mother/weak father and that undoubtedly had an influence, too.

As for why nature produces gays? Just to throw an idea out there, maybe it is one of nature's several ways of slowing down population growth? In Darwinian logic, wouldn't the most important aspect of gays be that they do not reproduce?

As for Corey Haim, he seems very unreliable, but I wouldn't doubt that there are some predators in Hollywood and that both Coreys were victims.

Anonymous said...

I've pondered whether the connection between Barry Obama and Frank Davis was ever at root political. My own
hunch has been that Stanley Armour Dunham, who appears genuinely to have loved his grandson, may have sought out Frank Davis as someone both Black and "bi" who might be able to offer guidance to a young grandson that gave some hint of being a bit "bi" at the time, in early adolescence, Barry refused to live with his mother any longer and came to Hawaii to live with his grandparents ? That a grandson who'd been indoctrinated daily by his schizo mother with neo-Marxism might visit politics to some extent with a long time Marxist, is not remarkable at all. It would be a guage of the dissembling the President is reasonably suspected of, if , in fact, the Davis relationship was mainly a gender complexity matter rather than anything relevant at all to Marxism. BTW, that Stanley Armour Dunham is reported to have known (of) Frank Davis back in Wichita, Kansas, sometime in the 1920's might be plausible, racial differences notwithstanding, if if the Armours and RWE Dunham were bootlegging whiskey through their Cafe--a style of life in which conventional racial barriers of the time were easily set aside.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if the Frank Davis connection was not prompted by
Stanley Armour Dunham out of concern that his adolescent grandson seemed a bit "bi" ? Davis, being both Black and "bi" would have been seen as someone who'd "been there, confronted that". Given that schizy Stanlee Ann had drilled Marxism into Barry's head every day from the time he was out of diaper, it is not remarkable that he would mention politics to an old Marxist
like Davis. It is fully suggestive of the dissembling of BHO that the Davis connection would be presented as political when it maybe was basically about sexual waywardness. There is reoport that Stan Dunham knew Frank Davis from the early days in Wichita, Kansas. If so, it is not unlikely that such a trans-racial relationship might have taken place attendant to the Armour-Dunham cafe being a bootlegg operation? The lifestyle attendant to running booze was one in which conventional barriers (race, sexual orientation, etc.) were kicked aside rather readily. Lavender seed time?

Anonymous said...

"came on to a couple of the Chicago Bears from the 80's in Los Angeles."

This brings up a point: I do feel sympathy for gay males, celebrities or not, when it's assumed that when they are sociable people and like to laugh they are assumed by other males to be "coming on to them." It happens, of course, but often what is seen as "coming on" is not that at all.

I became good friends with a colleague on staff who was out of the closet at time (the late 80s, early 90s)when doing so in a conservative working class town was a very new thing. He was a classy guy, friendly, bright, good with the kids, and aware that the male phys ed teachers mocked him behind his back. He wasn't a flamboyant guy at all, but he wore a small earring in one of his ears (was it the left or the right, don't recall)that at that time was an indicator of a male's homosexuality and yes, it he did that on purpose because he wasn't ashamed of who he was and was convinced that not until a goodly number of gays didn't hide in the closet would they feel better about who they were.

My point, however, is that he was by nature a likeable fellow who had a great sense of humor and in spite of the way the jocks whispered about him, as if they were still in junior high, he ignored it and tried his best to be a friendly and helpful colleague.

One day a couple of them came into a faculty lounge they rarely visited because the copy machine at the other end of the school had broken down. As they waited their turn, they sat down and visited for the next half hour or so, and as I recall, a mixed group of men and women, including the gay teacher, sat around shooting the bull and laughing it up about a whole assortment of things. I recollect that after the jocks left, Rob felt good that he and they had talked and laughed. I knew he felt that that incident might have marked a beginning of their acceptance of him as just another colleague who happened to be a good guy.

Unfortunately, about a week later, I heard rumors --yes, one or both of them had told their phys ed buddies as well as some of their history teacher pals that Rob had had a blast "flirting and coming on" to them.

It's hard to know if they really believed that or just thought it would make a great story, but I know how disappointed Rob was when he heard that although he'd been through that enough times not to be surprised by it as I, a straight female, was.

Gay Goering? said...

Time/Life used to run a commercial for their Third Reich series and they advertised the disturbing attributes of Nazi leaders and they specifically mentioned Goering as a homosexual

Goering was quite the flamboyant dandy atypical of the NAZI mould: he was fiercly loyal to his Jewish godfather to the point of quiting boarding school with an antisemitic headmaster, helped various Jews escape Germany during the war for monetary and non-monetary reasons, sported his own gaudy custom Field Marshall uniforms, a lover of jewlery, hoarder of fine art, lover of opera who claimed the opera house was more important than the Reichstag, etc.

A few quotes from Goring's wiki entry:

Göring was known for his extravagant tastes and garish clothing. Hans-Ulrich Rudel, the top Stuka pilot of the war, recalled twice meeting Göring dressed in outlandish costumes: first, a medieval hunting costume, practicing archery with his doctor, and second, dressed in a russet toga fastened with a golden clasp, smoking an abnormally large pipe. Italian Foreign Minister Ciano once noted Göring wearing a fur coat looking like what "a high grade prostitute wears to the opera."[29] His personal car—dubbed "The Blue Goose"—was an aviation blue Mercedes 540K Special Cabriolet. It had luxurious features, as well as special additions, including bullet-proof glass and bomb resistant armor for protection, and modifications to allow him to fit his girth behind the wheel.

Anonymous said...

About Goering's penchant for outlandish clothing--that's the kind of practice that makes one wonder if in many "the gay" comes with a brain chemistry that tends toward attention-seeking or simply a brain chemistry that makes them attracted to bright colors, different shapes or difference in general in order to set one's self apart...or if the admiration for such things developed as a signal to other gays of their sexual interests.

To SF--

The number of gay-oriented stories on CNN led me to turn it off for good. They overdid the bullying stories, for sure.

Anonymous said...

From what I can tell, homosexual men seem to have inherited a female type brain in a man's body, along with the sexual preference that goes with the brain. Hence why they are attracted to typically female careers etc. along with a lot of typically female mannerisms.

If it's genetic (which I think it is), the success of those genes is easily enough explained as genes that work so well in one sex that they get passed on in aggregate irrespective even if the children with the gender that is not favored by those genes has few children.

Some homosexuals and lesbians also do have traits that can be good for the community as a whole. A priest with great oratory skills for example.

Anonymous said...

Its good to see Lucius posting his name back here!

I must have been reasonably good looking in early 20s as I had a few unwelcome advances from gentlemen. Creeped me out. Usually on trains in London. one was a Canadian academic as I remember.

However Im reasonably well built and affected all black/punk kind of attire at the time. This may have attracted them but equally, physically they clearly didnt feel like pushing their luck (or anything else fortunately!)

Anonymous said...

"Some homosexuals and lesbians also do have traits that can be good for the community as a whole"

You don't say. But then, I've noticed that most straights these days don't seem to be very community oriented. Actually I should say straight whites. As their status erodes they are getting increasingly nasty towards their gays.

Truth said...

"If a man appears and behaves like an ordinary straight, then he is ipso facto not "gay", even if his preference is for men rather than women."

All of the valuable things I've learned here.

Social utility of gay male primates said...

Some homosexuals and lesbians also do have traits that can be good for the community as a whole. A priest with great oratory skills for example.

It seems that most of our primate relatives have an series of short term alpha male who monopolize females for reproduction.

This would leave most hetero males as reproductively useless and biological dead ends. For social stability, it would be better for these non-alpha males to pair off in homosexual relationships to meet their strong male sexual needs.

It would also leave these non-reproducing males free to excel at anything that unencumbered, single-focused males usually do - from art to technology.

Mighty White of You said...

I've noticed that most straights these days don't seem to be very community oriented. Actually I should say straight whites. As their status erodes they are getting increasingly nasty towards their gays.

Where are you getting your facts from?

This makes no sense. Whites are more accepting of gays than ever before, and certainly more accepting than blacks and hispanics.

Also, whites are the most community orientated ethnicity by far: volunteerism, environmentalism, highest fatality special forces fighting units, etc.

Londoner said...

I boobed - the "chimera hypothesis" relates to the absorption of female fraternal twins, not maternal twins, by their unborn brothers.

Anonymous said...

From The Gossip Columnist by Bill Dakota
http://www.zimbio.com/150+BISEXUAL+ACTORS/articles/13/Those+150+bisexual+actors+missed+few+though

MARLON BRANDO
WALLY COX
JAMES DEAN
HORST BUCHOLTZ
JOHN TRAVOLTA
ERROL FLYNN
YUL BRYNNER
BURT REYNOLDS
BURGESS MEREDITH
MICHAEL LANDON
DAVID BOWIE
MICK JAGGER
CHUCK CONNORS
KEITH RICHARDS
TOM BERRINGER
DENNIS HOPPER
JACK BENNY
BURT LANCASTER
BRODERICK CRAWFORD
VAN JOHNSON
WALT DISNEY
BURT BACHARACH
DEAN STOCKWELL
GLENN CAMPBELL
PAUL NEWMAN
STEVE MCQUEEN

Regarding Paul Newman. I once thumbed through a biography on Newman and recall that his first wife accused him of being gay. He and his plain Jane beard wife, Joanne Woodward, lived with Gore Vidal at one time. She was also briefly engaged to Vidal at one time. I think his buddy A. E Hotchner is also gay. Also think Papa Hemingway was probably gay as well. There's been quite a bit of lgbt speculation about Hemingway's homosexuality.

stari_momak said...

"I tend to think many of these guys are probably gay..." [with a link to a 'bisexual actors' story]

The LA Times recently did an article on a meta-analysis of estimates of the hoomosexual and bisexual proportion of the population. Turns out there were slightly more bisexuals.

Anonymous said...

Psychiatry, like medicine generally, accumulates terminology and diagnostic categories in a fashion that cries out for retrospective correction, clarification, ordering. It is "a bit much" to assume that moral condemnation of homosexuality would have so generally arisen if human experience and upclose observation did not confirm that most homosexuals CHOOSE same sex
indulgence in the interest of lust, egoism, concealment, irresponsibility, corruption, etc.

NOTA said...

Yeah, that increasing nastiness to gays is apparently demonstrated by stuff like support for gay marriage and including gays in anti discrimination laws. I'm not what you'd call 100% convinced, here.

Re the gay men in marriages with kids: I don't claim any deep insight here, but most of us subordinate our sexual tastes or desires to bigger personal goals much of the time. I certainly don't have any trouble noticing women I find attractive in the big wide world, but I don't pursue them, since that's a pretty good way of wrecking your marriage and screwing over your kids. It's quite plausible to me that some men might prefer guys in bed and as romantic partners, but be willing to marry in order to have the advantages of raising a family and stability. It doesnt seem like a completely different situation whether youre a middle-aged married guy who's refraining from chasing after the hot 20-something girls or the hot 20-something boys. In either case, youre accepting that part of keeping your marriage and family intact is not chasing after someone, even if you find her or him more attractive than your wife.

keypusher said...

elton john, freddie mercury, rob halford.

Note that none of the three was known to be gay at the height of their popularity. In fact Elton John was believed to have ruined his career when he admitted he was bisexual some time around 1980.

Attitudes towards gays are much more positive now that 30 years ago, but I still wouldn't want to admit I was gay if I were a pop star. Ricky Martin stayed in the closet until his career was well and truly dead. Same with whoever it was in one of the 1990s boys' bands. Right now lots of people believe Justin Bieber is gay, but he's not out.

keypusher said...

I wonder how many of the officially gay celebrities (eg Nathan Lane or Jodie Foster) are secretly het?

Not those two! But neither has ever made a big deal of their sexuality. In fact, has Jodie Foster ever officially come out?

Anonymous said...

"There's been quite a bit of lgbt speculation about Hemingway's homosexuality."

There's been "quite a bit of lgbt speculation" about every masculine icon. Gee, wonder why.

K2 said...

The same Ernest Hemingway that when he witnessed Ava Gardner swimming naked in his pool, instructed his poolboy to never change the water?

Anonymous said...

The same handsome 20 year old who married frumpy 28 year old Hadley? (google a pic) The same Hemingway that hung out with lesbians in Paris, then married his second wife, Pauline, dabbled in lesbianism and looked like a 14 year old boy? (google a pic) The same Hemingway that had multiple homosexual characters in many of his stories? That old closet queen?

Anonymous said...

Hemingway handsome? Na, a drunk though.

Anonymous said...

One of Hem's sons lacked, or lost, sexual anchor.

Anonymous said...

Oh the dreaded gay people are being nice to me so they must want to get in my pants story. Now you know what it feels like to be a woman.