January 19, 2011

"Blue Valentine"

From my movie review in Taki's Magazine:
Blue Valentine, a superbly acted indie drama about a middle-class nurse falling out of love with her working-class house-painter husband, is both a timeless look at how sexual attraction actually works and an increasingly timely depiction of male-female troubles.

Since director Derek Cianfrance rewrote his screenplay 66 times while struggling to find financing over the last dozen years, Blue Valentine wound up more socially relevant now than it would have been in the 1990s. The dropout-rate gap between males and females has widened, technology has rendered a strong back less useful, and illegal immigration has further driven down the wages of less-educated men.

The press has celebrated the decline of men relative to women (for example, Hanna Rosin’s Atlantic article “The End of Men”). Yet are women notably happier? Mad Men creator Matthew Weiner explained why his series’ JFK-era retrograde behavior excites contemporary female viewers: “What’s sexist in the office is fuel in the bedroom.” Blue Valentine is about a marriage running on fumes.

Michelle Williams is Cindy and Ryan Gosling is Dean. Each has been a minor star for some time, both earning Oscar nominations: he as a teacher in Half Nelson, she as the late Heath Ledger’s wife in Brokeback Mountain. (Williams and Ledger had a real-life child.) Williams and Gosling, both 30, are excellent at playing a five-year-old girl’s worn-down parents as well as (in extensive flashbacks to their first meeting) beautiful 20-year-olds. Cianfrance shot the present on harsh digital video, the past on warm film stock.

Read the whole thing there.

Roissy gives Blue Valentine a rave at Citizen Renegade.

In contrast, conventional movie critics overwhelmingly give the movie thumbs up, but have a hard time even grasping what it's about.

132 comments:

Anonymous said...

Gotta read the Roissy review:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2011/01/18/beta-valentine/

Anonymous said...

Steve,
Did you not notice that the 5 year old is NOT Dean's daughter, she is the daughter of the wrestler?

Anonymous said...

...an increasingly timely depiction of male-female troubles...

Okay, where's Whiskey?

Anonymous said...

"Roissy gives Blue Valentine a rave at Citizen Renegade."

Ah, it appeals to sociopaths. Well...

Severn said...

a middle-class nurse falling out of love with her working-class house-painter husband

It's Whiskey bait!

Geoff Matthews said...

Anonymous #4.

Yeah, Roissy is definitely a sociopath. And narcissistic. With sociopaths, ou have those that rationalize why they aren't evil and those that admit they are. Roissy is the latter.

Anonymous said...

As a general rule, females can lose respect for their husbands when the famle starts making more money than the husband.

A female can lose respect for her husband when the world values her profession more than his profession.

If the female has a more respected profession, and at the same time the female is making more money, it usually spells extreme trouble.

Roissy has a lot of good insights and I respect him very much, but at the end of the day, the married acolytes of Roissy believe that they can be short, ugly, have low occupational status and low income and still sustain things. Roissy's acolytes think "game" can overcome all.

The truth is that as the wife's status and income grew, no ammt of game would have made her respect her husband.

Whiskey said...

Whiskey is right here!

No, Roissy is not a sociopath. He's a guy who came late, likely, to a realization of womens hypergamy and is making up for lost time.

The whole point of the movie is that the woman, played by Michelle Williams, "Cindy," trades in her perfectly good Beta Male husband for an option on a sexy hook-up. With the doctor (who certainly won't marry her), her old flame (the wrestler), or whoever.

Beta providers simply are not needed. And what is best for kids/family comes second to what is best for sexy times for women.

Women are choosing sexiness over everything else. Because they can. A middle class woman like "Cindy" does not need a Beta provider. A illegal alien part-time nanny can replace him for child-rearing. With 100% sexier hook-ups. Nothing is more repellent to a woman than sex with a Beta Male. Particularly when Alpha men are around.

Whiskey said...

Let me add that the whole set-up depends on:

A. Safety net of the welfare state.
B. Stable/rising incomes for women in non-wealth generating jobs: nursing, office work, etc.

Kick either or both away, which will happen eventually based on the "China Challenge" of cheap labor undermining Western productivity and manufacturing/service employment along with illegal and legal immigration (H1-B) destroying the income/tax base and thus the support for the welfare state AND consumer economy or "she-conomy" as some have dubbed it ... and you get a radical shift.

Likely to leave many out. "Cindy" notably has 25 partners. Constantly searching for the more Alpha male, and one who will commit. She keeps the baby from the pump-dump Alpha, won't have the Beta's kid. Is easily bedded by any guy with charm and Alpha status. The higher beta (Gosling) who acts aggressive/aloof/Alpha thinks his wife wants a Beta provider, and does his best to become one, instead of being ... SEXY.

In short, our future is pretty much British Chavs mixed with Antonio Cromartie (9 kids with 8 different women, he can't keep either straight or recall them). Men optimized for sexy dominance, women choosing on that basis. It won't change until we get to catastrophic Dark Ages times.

Anonymous said...

Sounds like a straight version of Paranormal Activities where the guy doesn't measure up to the girl either.

Anonymous said...

Magnolia was a beta-male national convention of sorts. Even the Tom Cruise character turned out to be a fake.

Truth said...

"In short, our future is pretty much British Chavs mixed with Antonio Cromartie (9 kids with 8 different women, he can't keep either straight or recall them). Men optimized for sexy dominance, women choosing on that basis. It won't change until we get to catastrophic Dark Ages times."

Well hey Sport, look on the bright side...YOU won't have to worry about changing diapers or sitting through ballet recitals.

Anonymous said...

Benjamin Braddock knew what to do though he looked like a beta male. He had balls, a latent chutzpah which came out.

BV also reminds me of another beta male movie. Summer with Monika.
The most painful movie about male humiliation: Blue Angel. The professor really gets it bad. I like both versions.

Anonymous said...

King Arthur, Lacelot, and Guinevere.

Anonymous said...

Arthur was an Alpha and Lancelot was also an Alpha.

eh said...

...illegal immigration has further driven down the wages of less-educated men.

The H-1B (among other visas) has done pretty much the same thing to the wages of 'better-educated' men. Not to mention serving as a prime driver of age discrimination, which further erodes earning power.

...a middle-class nurse falling out of love with her working-class house-painter husband,...

Women tend to marry 'up' in terms of the socioeconomic status of whom they choose, while conversely (duh) men to marry 'down'. Anecdotally, when that formula is not followed, it seems there are more difficulties in the relationship. Not that there aren't many problems in all relationships.

Anonymous said...

We should make a list of movies where betas get sexually humiliated by alphas. Didn't this Gosling guy play a beta gay who gets humiliated in LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE?
Jules in JULES AND JIM was a beta, but so was Jim in a way. The only real alpha was Catherine the girl.

But there are also movies where alphas lost out to betas. There's a movie LUCK OF GINGER COFFEY where a guy can't keep his job because he's an all-too-aggressive alpha and so his wife goes off with a more reliable beta.

anony-mouse said...

George VI (the King's Speech) seemed like an uber-beta.

And yet he winds up a hero.

Bill said...

Good stuff, Steve. I'm not sure many guys of your generation can appreciate how disturbingly accurate that movie is, but as usual you're sharp enough to pick up on the trends.

This is what makes iSteve so valuable.

Keep it up -- your work is definitely appreciated.

Anonymous said...

"Arthur was an Alpha and Lancelot was also an Alpha."

Yes and no. Maybe one can say Arthur was alpha minus and Lancelot was alpha plus.
But this is a case which shows that the alpha-beta thing is relative. Arthur is alpha in relation to most men but a beta in relation to Lancelot.
What may pass for alpha in one context may be beta in another. Suppose some guy was a highschool athlete, popular and considered cool. At the college level, he may be nothing special. He may find himself to be a beta.
Similarly, 'intelligent' in one context may be nothing special, even dumb, in another. Some black guy who comes in first place in his highschool may only be a C student at an all white school.

And then there's the problem of alpheta complex and belpha complex. Alpheta complex involves men with alpha personality but beta physiques. Woody Allen and Martin Scoresese may belong in this category. They have aggressive personalities but are short and scrawny. Since alpheta types cannot win by being manly, their aggression tends to filled with aggressiveness, as with the Jewish guy in BROADCAST NEWS.

The belpha complex involves guys with alpha physiques and beta personalities. Lou Ferrigno in PUMPING IRON was this type. Big strong dude but daddy's little boy.

But some guys are beta in every way. They should make sure to hook up with a beta girl. Skippy in FAMILY TIES finally met a girl who was nerdy like him. She would love him even if he's a loser.

HIGH FIDELITY is very smart about male-female relationships. The leading guy is neither alpha nor beta, or he's alpha or beta depending on the situation. The scene where he loses Catherina Zeta Jones to some hunk has to be one of the great beta male humiliation moments. Of his employees, one is a fat alpha and the other is short bald beta, but both are losers.

Something Wild has a professionally successful yuppie beta vs criminal thug alpha. Interesting.

If anyone has ever seen a game of dodgeball, alpha players either get the most glory or get killed first(since they like to play up front)while betas last longer but get no glory either(since they mostly stay in the back).

Anonymous said...

We are hard-wired so that


* a woman wants one man to be all things to her.

* a man wants all women to be one thing to him.

These are the source of our discontent since neither is possible.

Anonymous said...

"Since alpheta types cannot win by being manly, their aggression tends to filled with aggressiveness, as with the Jewish guy in BROADCAST NEWS."

I meant 'filled with resentment'.

Anonymous said...

There's hot alpha and icy alpha. Sonny was hot alpha. Michael was icy alpha--though he too could blow his top too. Hyman Roth and Vito Corleone were smooth alpha though they knew when to turn up the heat.

Anonymous said...

The most painful sensitive guy movie. WHEN A MAN LOVES A WOMAN.

Was James Dean alpha or beta in REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE? He had alpha guts but beta withdrawn-ness.

What about the guy in BRING ME THE HEAD OF ALFREDO GARCIA? A beta guy trying to prove that he's alpha?

STRAW DOGS, now there's a movie that shows betas are not to mess with if pushed too far.

Anonymous said...

This movie reminds me of Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

Anonymous said...

Liberalism leads to a kind of complex among alpha males, the conquest/conscience complex. Take George Bailey, kinda like a New Deal type. By nature, he wants to lick the world. He's a born explorer and conqueror. But moral obligation requires him to stay put and help the little people. Since his natural desire for CONQUEST has been repressed, he compensates with power of CONSCIENCE. And even in his 'little' role, he does play a kind of grandstanding role as moral leader of the community.

Michael Corleone is a somewhat more interesting case. Like George Bailey, he wanted to leave the famly and do his thing. But problem with the father--Vito gets shot and Bailey's dad dies of heartattack--requires him to return to the family and forces him to abandon his dreams. But even within the family, he can rise very high and grow powerful and rich, which is not the case with George. Crime does pay, I guess. But George is surrounded by friends at the end whereas Michael all alone at the end of pt II. (Pt III doesn't count. It sucks.) And brother Harry returns home alive whereas Michael killes Fredo.

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kvfCm-rVpQ

IN THE COMPANY OF MEN, the ultimate alpha/beta mating game. Merciless.

Anonymous said...

This is about a woman stuck with a beta seeking an alpha, but are there alphas and betas among women too?
Didn't John McCain dump his wife and go with a rich gorgeous wife? Was Cindy the alpha female in this case? Or is it like a princess female and maid female thing?

Anonymous said...

you guys don't know what omegas are, do you

lol

that must be why you think women "hate" betas

They don't - most guys are betas, so most guy's DADS are betas, which means betas are doing the majority of reproduction.

You are disregarding omegas.

It's ok, science is hard.

Anonymous said...

Do you really think a lot of brainy women married men who were far below them on the Stanford-Binet?

I don't. I see married couples of equivalent IQs and educations (college grads)with the guy slacking at home, knowing his wife will bring home the bacon. It's an epidemic and has been for over ten years. If he does have a job, it's part time with his wife often falling for the line "Well, when the right job comes along, I'll make up for the part-time income."

Guys like Whiskey make me laugh. Men are sponging off women and women are stupid for allowing it.

Anonymous said...

No surprises here. After yrs of being told that men should be sensitive, gender is just a social construct, and true equality is to be had when men become more feminine while women become more masculine, it turning out that women do want real men.

Another thing. If women are encouraged to be more assertive and male-like, they will demand men to be even more man-like and successful. An aggressive woman doesn't like a passive man. She likes an EVEN MORE aggressive man.
The lie of feminism is that women want equality with men. Women want freedom, more power, and more money but they also want men who are even more powerful and wealthy. I don't see too many progressive career women marrying janitors or low IQ wimps, any more than I see them sending their kids to inner city schools in the name of diversity.

And isn't our society schizo when it tells men to be sensitive (at least according to white liberal ideology) but the big shots that run the movie, music, and sports industry glorify the supermacho male.
I wonder if ultra-machismo is tolerated and even hyped in our culture because blacks dominate. Suppose the biggest music stars and athletes were white males; perhaps leftism and feminism would go after and houd sports and pop music much more.
When porn and misogynous pop music was mostly white, feminists trashed them as vile, hateful, and evil. Feminists also trashed Madonna early in her career. But when rap became big, Madonna turned to interracialism, and porn became integrated, criticism of such things have become muted on the left and among feminists. Feminists and leftists may still dislike porn, macho sports culture, and misogynous pop music but as long as they are serving to EMPOWER blacks and promote interracialism, they seem to be okay with progressives.

Anonymous said...

BAD SANTA for Christmas. PASSION OF THE CHRIST for Easter. BLUE VALENTINE for Valentine.

How depressing.

agnostic said...

"By past generations’ standards, Dean is a decent husband. He has a job, adores his wife, and never hits her."

That also describes George McFly at the very beginning of Back to the Future. But then he undergoes a rite of passage and becomes not merely a decent dad but a man with dignity.

The basis of that transformation is not couples therapy or soul-searching -- it's punching the bully Biff in the face and laying him out cold, and then shoving some nerd aside when he cuts in with Lorraine during the dance.

That's just one of many rite of passage movies from back when lesser males still felt enough shame mixed with ambition to want to better themselves, all long before those girly Self Improvement sections in the Barnes & Noble.

Since the mid-'90s, loser guys have been content to stay losers -- just compare Weird Science to American Pie or Harold and Kumar Give a Blowjob to Their PlayStation 3. So there is something to female complaints about in-a-rut males.

I think most of the malaise that blue-collar guys have been feeling is due to the plummeting violence rates after 1992. That robs them of their role as protectors -- there's little left to protect against.

That's why women feel that they don't need men as much as they used to: they have detected a steep drop in the encounter rate with the bad guys, so they don't feel a very strong need for bodyguards anymore.

Anonymous said...

Wise words from HIGH FIDELITY.

"What I really learned from the Charlie Debacle is that you gotta punch your weight. Charlie was out of my Class: too pretty, too smart, too witty, too much. What am I? Average. A middleweight. Not the smartest guy in the world, but certainly not the dumbest."

Mercer said...

Anyone seen statistics of how many women college grads are married to high school dropouts?

Anonymous said...

Beta providers simply are not needed.

Too bad whiskey.

Anonymous said...

"Didn't this Gosling guy play a beta gay who gets humiliated in LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE?"

No, Gosling wasn't in that film and you're so mixed up that I have no idea what actor/role/film you might be talking about.

Anonymous said...

I want my MTV.

Black Sea said...

@Truth:"YOU won't have to worry about changing diapers or sitting through ballet recitals."

Neither will Antonio Cromartie.

TGGP said...

Mercer, I have a GSS post here. It contains mean spousal years plus standard deviation for each year of a woman's education. So I ran another analysis for your question.
Row: SPEDUC(r:0-11;12; 13-20)
Selection filter(s): SEX(2),EDUC(16-20)
Spouse's years of education, percentage
0-11, 2.6
12, 11.9
13-20, 85.5

24.1 percent of men sampled have less than twelve years of education, 28.8 have exactly 12. Among women those numbers are 23.1 and 33.9. I'm guessing lots of them are older generations.

Chief Seattle said...

Wow - the Taki comments leave the Sailer crowd looking like optimists.

Anonymous said...

It's interesting that in a historically arranged marriage societies like India and China, you have a much more "beta" population than other parts of the world.

Simon in London said...

I have US in-laws like this (middle class nurse & working class husband) but AFAIK they're happily married, with two beautiful daughters. Probably helps that they live in an Affordable Family Formation State.

Simon in London said...

Anon:
"Arthur was an Alpha and Lancelot was also an Alpha."

In zoological terms, the pack leader, Arthur, is the Alpha. Lancelot is the sexy Beta, using the Beta mating strategy.

In Roisy's terms, well Roissy's terms don't make much sense; he conflates the 'powerful pack leader' (Alpha) with 'sexy seducer' (Beta) mating strategies as being both Alpha, and conflates less powerful pack leaders, the monogamous husbands (Alpha) with no-sex single males (Beta) as being both Beta. His own strategy is the classic sexy-Beta one.

He calls himself an Alpha and the men he cuckolds Betas, but this is the opposite of the zoological usage.

ATBOTL said...

"I think most of the malaise that blue-collar guys have been feeling is due to the plummeting violence rates after 1992. That robs them of their role as protectors -- there's little left to protect against."

There are a lot of really bizarre explanations for things voiced on this site(in the comments), but this one takes the cake.

Anonymous said...

Classically, the easy explanation would be that Arthur [limey] was a man of noble character whereas Lancelot [frog] was a man of ignoble character.

Except that Arthur committed incest with his own half-sister to produce Mordred.

Which is to say - the whole thing is a tragedy.

PS: Were you guys like me in watching the King Arthur marathon on Turner Classic Movies the other night?

We did Camelot as a school play back in the day, but I think it was the first time that I had ever seen the movie itself.

Anonymous said...

I work in the medical field, and I see plenty of women who out-earn and probably out-rank their husbands. For example, almost all nurses in the San Francisco area make 6 figures. I would bet that less than half of their husbands/partners make that much.

Another example: 50% of new docs are now female. Most of them aren't finding higher earning or higher-status men.

elvisd said...

There is no husband-cuckolding film more gross and humiliating than Alexandra's Project. Rent it and watch your skin crawl.

Simon in London said...

A working-class friend of mine married a single mother, equally working class AFAIK. They seem happily married. Differences from the movie script would be:

1. They now have several kids together, so he's not just a stepdad. Roissy is right that a single mother of childbearing age who's unwilling to have more kids with her putative husband is a terrible marriage prospect - Run Away Fast.

2. He's a big, muscular guy, due to much lifting of weights on a reasonable starting chassis.

3. He's a fireman, one of the best blue-collar jobs. Mind you when they married AIR he was a library shelf-stacker!

4. I suspect he's considerably smarter than her, in any case they're not dependent on her income.

JSM said...

"I don't. I see married couples of equivalent IQs and educations (college grads)with the guy slacking at home, knowing his wife will bring home the bacon....
Guys like Whiskey make me laugh. Men are sponging off women and women are stupid for allowing it."

You don't get it. Whiskey says women hate hate hate betas and love alphas. And, since he defines anyone that women hate as "beta" and anyone they love as "alpha," he's never wrong.

If the guy is old and ugly like Kissinger, but a millionaire, he's alpha. If he's a lazy bum and his wife supports him, he's alpha. If he's not a lazy bum and supports his wife, he's beta and women will hate hate hate him -- unless it so happens she loves him, which means he's alpha.

If he's good looking and a millionaire, even a movie star, but older, like Mel Gibson, but the women are mad at him, he's beta because he got old. If he's good looking and a millionaire, even a movie star, but older, like Sean Connery, but the women aren't mad at him -- in fact, voted him "sexiest man alive in his 60s" -- he's alpha.

Now, how this is all supposed to come together to help young men get a wife, I dunno.
"Be an alpha so women will like you."
"What's an alpha?"
"Someone that women like."
"Okaaaay."

I'm sure it does, though, boost Whiskey's self esteem to think that he's discovered the Question to Life, the Universe, and Everything, so there's that, at least.

Anonymous said...

Where does the film History of Violence fit into the theme of Alpha/Beta male structure?

Rain And said...

Blue Valentine is an obvious HBD movie, right down to the scene where Dean's black co-worker is telling him to choose promiscuity over monogamous crushes.

It's not even subtle. In the scene where Cindy's family is interviewing Dean, Dean says his dad was a janitor and a talented musician, and that his mom abandoned him and his dad. The implication was that Dean shared his dad's genes for low ambition, music, and even abandonment.

Cindy's dad is also shown as abusive towards her housewife mom; implying she inherited his contempt for the domestic partner.

Paul Mendez said...

No surprises here. After yrs of being told that men should be sensitive, gender is just a social construct, and true equality is to be had when men become more feminine while women become more masculine, it turning out that women do want real men.

Let's not go COMPLETELY overboard with the bio-determinism stuff. Cultural fads also matter. The Alan Alda Sensitive Male shtick worked plenty fine for getting laid in the late 70's!

Truth said...

"He calls himself an Alpha and the men he cuckolds Betas, but this is the opposite of the zoological usage."

Yeah, an alpha who can't tell anyone his real name. Even James Bond told his name to the people he was planning to kill.

Kylie said...

I've always liked thinking of my husband and myself as Billy the Mountain and Ethel the Tree.

(FWIW, his family background is blue-collar, mine is white collar. He's got a high school diploma, I've got a diploma and 2 years of college.)

Beyond that, I don't know what to say except that this is one of the most depressing threads I've ever read.

Anonymous said...

I'm at a disadvantage here because I have not only not seen this film, I have sworn on the alter of God to never watch a Ryan Gosling movie.

But I can at least comment on Whiskey's ideas. He's wrong.

Actually its a little more complicated than that. Everything Whiskey obsesses about (alpha and beta guys) is probably correct for many people maybe even most people but hardly all people.

Study the love life of the Northern Shit-faced Finch and you will find that all of them acts pretty much the same way. Study people and you see diversity (no offense intended).

It may be true that in some bars some women are attracted to some alpha males but how do you account for Kevin Costner?

Costner is apparently very attractive to females but his great success has always been in playing beta males. In his last big hit Free Range Robert Duval is the trail boss not Costner. In his first big hit No Way Out Gene Hackman is the alpha guy who loses the girl to a callow and sneaky Costner. James Earl Jones dominates him in every scene in Field of Dreams in which they appear together. Costner was a very wimpy Robin Hood - etc, etc..

Whiskey's error is not recognizing that women's tastes in men are not uniform. Ugly short men can still get laid, or tall handsome but feckless guys like Costner.

So in this movie the woman loses her zest for her husband. Like the song says "La Donne Mobile". Sounds riveting.

Albertosaurus

Anonymous said...

I'm at a disadvantage here because I have not only not seen this film, I have sworn on the alter of God to never watch a Ryan Gosling movie.

But I can at least comment on Whiskey's ideas. He's wrong.

Actually its a little more complicated than that. Everything Whiskey obsesses about (alpha and beta guys) is probably correct for many people maybe even most people but hardly all people.

Study the love life of the Northern Shit-faced Finch and you will find that all of them acts pretty much the same way. Study people and you see diversity (no offense intended).

It may be true that in some bars some women are attracted to some alpha males but how do you account for Kevin Costner?

Costner is apparently very attractive to females but his great success has always been in playing beta males. In his last big hit Free Range Robert Duval is the trail boss not Costner. In his first big hit No Way Out Gene Hackman is the alpha guy who loses the girl to a callow and sneaky Costner. James Earl Jones dominates him in every scene in Field of Dreams in which they appear together. Costner was a very wimpy Robin Hood - etc, etc..

Whiskey's error is not recognizing that women's tastes in men are not uniform. Ugly short men can still get laid, or tall handsome but feckless guys like Costner.

So in this movie the woman loses her zest for her husband. Like the song says "La Donne Mobile". Sounds riveting.

Albertosaurus

Anonymous said...

"Women are choosing sexiness over everything else. Because they can. A middle class woman like "Cindy" does not need a Beta provider. A illegal alien part-time nanny can replace him for child-rearing. With 100% sexier hook-ups. Nothing is more repellent to a woman than sex with a Beta Male. Particularly when Alpha men are around."

It depends on the women. If she's pretty and desirable and sexually aggressive, very true. But if she's ugly and undesirable, she might be faithful and grateful to even a beta who loves her.

'If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife, take my personal point of view, get an ugly girl to marry you'.

'Man, I saw your wife the other day. She sho is uggglyyyyyyy!'

'Yeah, but she can cook though...'

Anonymous said...

You know, the woman in this movie seems relatively young. Wait ten yrs when her looks began to fade--and most alphas of her age have settled down--, and she'll be grateful for even a beta male.

'You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find just what you need.'

Swarthy Anglo said...

The "she-conomy" as concisely as I can state it: illiterate Mexicans can dig ditches and swing hammers, but they can't meet-and-greet clients in a waiting room or operate Microsoft Excel.

Anonymous said...

Is this like Wuthering Heights, Mandingo, and that awful movie Piano? Woman wants the more exciting guy?
Leftists seem to have no problem with this as long as a white woman is running from EVIL WHITE MALE BOURGEOIS PATRIARCHY and running into the arms of some swarthy masculine dude.
But leftists may be flustered with this movie because the woman is running from your typical progressive sensitive SWPL guy. Gee, how did that happen?

Anonymous said...

EARRINGS OF MADAME DU is an interesting movie, beautiful and sad too. In this movie, an aristocratic woman is married to an alpha male, the handsome and tough Charles Boyer. But the marriage was probably one of convenience, upper caste marrying upper caste. Though they seem to be on good terms, he has his own life--with mistresses--and she has hers. She falls in love with a man who would be considered a 'beta male' in this context. Well, things end tragically, but her love is with the beta male dude, played wonderfully by Vittorio de Sica, also a famous director.

Directed by Max Ophuls, who was Jewish. He probably identified with the beta male dude since a lot of Jewish men were socially placed in a beta position in Old World society where the social conventions and mores were dictated by gentile aristocratic types into using pistols and swords in the name of honor. Jews rose up as businessmen with heads bowed down.

Anonymous said...

SWEPT AWAY is an interesting sexual relations movie. A southern Italian guy is hired as servant on a yacht and forced to play subservient beta male role, but when the rich woman is stranded with him on an island, he takes control. The interesting thing is he's naturally alpha but socially beta.

There is something like this in the movie THE SERVANT though it's about man-man relationship. The aristocrat has power over the servant. Socially, the young aristocrat is alpha and the servant is beta. But naturally(personality wise), the servant is alpha--more intelligent, more power-hungry, and ruthless--while the aristocrat is a beta--pushover, a dud, and a putzhead. So, we see the social beta male slowly exert his natural alpha personality over his boss.

We have this problem in America too, especially in the past. There was a time when even the toughest and most aggressive blacks had to call white folks 'sir', bow a lot, and talk softly. They were forced to be beta. In the Old South, even Muhammad Ali would have shuffled and ho-de-do'ed before Don Knots. And even some wimpy white guy could call a big black guy, 'boy'.
One reason why many people the oppression of blacks as especially unjust could be due to the sense that the naturally superior or alpha race had been subjugated by a beta race. Thus, black liberation in the 60s was measured in terms of its wild noise, outrage, and violence.
There may also be an especially resentful tone in Chinese nationalism because Chinese feel that the people of the Middle Kingdom--rightful masters of the universe--have been insulted by 'barbarians'. Germans too went crazy because they saw themselves as an alpha nation restrained by beta nations.

Anyway, with greater social freedom, we are seeing nature take its course, and old social relations are being reversed. It could be many older liberals still think in terms of the old social order when they, as privileged whites, had power over pitiful blacks. What one saw and experienced in one's youth colors one's view for the rest of one's life. These old liberals fail to understand how much society has changed. Their mental image of race relations is still all-powerful patrician whites helping out poor humble blacks pleading for an ounce of justice. And since a lot of these liberals grew up rich, their direct relations with blacks involved maids and chauffers who always treated them nice. So, when they saw clashes between working class whites and poor blacks, they thought nasty whites were just beating up on helpless kindly blacks.

To an extent, release of black alpha-male-ism was good for blacks, for they felt like a man, as Ossie Davis said of Malcolm X. But excessive alpha-male-ism also led to demise of black underclass, with guys too tough to study or have manners. Black women are so starved of stable male affection that they'll shack up with any man who shows them any love.

Concerned Netizen said...

I didn't see the movie so my comment isn't about that but about Roissy's review.

Roissy is indeed a sociopath, and his review, while containing some entertaining and accurate scattershot observations, is the product of a diseased mind.

For example, "Cindy is no villain. She is just following the dictates of her Darwinian script" is something that should puzzle any serious follower of Steve Sailer.

I should think that Sailer would say that modern women and men are prevented from following the dictates of their respective "Darwinian scripts" and that is what's causing all the havoc in the modern world between the genders.

Care to clear that up, Mr. Sailer?

The other inconsistencies and illogicalities in Roissy's review are too numerous to mention, so I thought I'd restrict myself to its major illogicality.

Anonymous said...

"Didn't this Gosling guy play a beta gay who gets humiliated in LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE?"

"No, Gosling wasn't in that film and you're so mixed up that I have no idea what actor/role/film you might be talking about."

Remember the gay brother who tried to commit suicide? Well, he wasn't Gosling, but he looked like him.
I think Gosling was in Half Nelson, a pitiful dishonest movie if there ever was on.

Concerned Netizen said...

Sorry, a bit off topic but while we are discussing movies, older viewers in UK have led the way to the success of THE KING'S SPEECH:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2011/jan/18/the-kings-speech-box-office?INTCMP=SRCH

Why?

Could it be that older British movie-goers are heartily sick and tired of multicult Britain, and want to commune with the spirits of their British ancestors, cold drafty rooms and all?

I saw this movie and thought it was good, not great. But at one point I was gripped by the irrational fear that the director would insert a black character just to be diverse. Thank God he didn't.

Anonymous said...

How would one characterize Travis Bickle? Or some other psycho killers?

Maybe it's good for most guys to know and feel that they're either alpha or beta. Perhaps, most crazy guys are confused between the two because of their body chemistry.
That V-tech killer guy, Seung Hee Choi, was outwardly very much a beta--shy, withdrawn, etc. But inwardly, he was a raging ball of flames. Columbine kids were bullied as betas but dying to exert their alpha vengeance, to be Tony Montana.
And Travis Bickle was like a loser who wanted to be dirty harry.
Maybe it's a mix of genes. Hitler's father was very authoritarian and very masculine while his mother was ultra-passive and kind. It could have been this mix of strength and weakness which led to so much tension within Hitler. Some betas are happy to accept their beta-roles. Even if they are insulted, they laugh along and try to fit in. But some betas have some hidden raging alpha will-to-power inside them. They often turn out to be the most unpleasant people on Earth. A kind of Napoleon complex, of the soul than of physique. Every slight, real or imagined, leads to lifelong grudges.

Svigor said...

In zoological terms, the pack leader, Arthur, is the Alpha. Lancelot is the sexy Beta, using the Beta mating strategy.

Lancelot is all about merit; He's the best of the best. Arthur is all about privilege; he's the chosen one. Without Excalibur and his kingdom, Arthur would lose to Lancelot. In short, Arthur is lucky, and Lancelot is good.

Similarly, Guinevere's relationship with Arthur is more arranged-marriage, but with Lancelot is chosen; privilege vs. merit, society vs. genes.

You make interesting points, though.

Anonymous said...

King and I had a concubine of the alpha king falling in love with some lowly guy, so there is hope after all for the losers. But then he lost his head.

Anonymous said...

"It may be true that in some bars some women are attracted to some alpha males but how do you account for Kevin Costner?"

You must be a guy, right?


I fell in love-lust with KC in "No Way Out" (recommended to me by two other women friends who'd just seen it and fallen in love-lust with him) and loved him even more in Bull Durham.

If that's beta, I'll take a world full of betas. I've a feeling men don't understand the distinction between the "sticking-out-of-one's- chest-to- appear-alpha" and the "quiet- but- strong" alpha women value. You know, the old "strong, silent type" and "still waters run deep"? Those phrases persist because they contain truths.

BTW, Costner has lost his looks with age and with it, much of his appeal, yet his voice and understated delivery can still, at times, be enough to keep my interest.

helene edwards said...

'Saurus, I've always enjoyed your posts but you seem to be slipping. Costner had his greatest success playing beta males? C'mon, he became a star via Bull Durham, where Crash was about as alpha as a character could be. In No Way Out, wasn't his character detached to the Pentagon because he'd been a stud submarine captain? And wasn't Hackman the beta loser, having to kill his girlfriend? Jeez.

Anonymous said...

"One reason why many people regard the oppression of blacks as especially unjust could be due to the sense that the naturally superior or alpha race had been subjugated by a beta race. Thus, black liberation in the 60s was measured in terms of its wild noise, outrage, and violence."

It's as if a breed of beagles ruled over a breed of wolves.
It seems like not just a case of social injustice but natural injustice. And given the soulful and musical qualities of blacks, it may even seem like a case of spiritual injustice.

White liberals seem to be underhandedly acknowledging the natural superiority of blacks: Muhammad Ali as super athlete, MLK as bellowing leader with god-like voice, Oprah the mother goddess herself, Obama the man of charisma. Of course, liberals cannot say this explicitly since their ideology says all races are equal.
Even as white liberals acknowledge and admire black superiority, they want it to be tamed, at least to make it white-liberal-friendly. So, the once dangerous Ali was remade into all-American hero, which Ali accepted for greater fame and fortune. Oprah and Obama have been put atop the pedestal as 'nice' black people. Obama's poll numbers are rising since he's put on the 'middle of the road' facade once again. White liberals don't want the uncle tom, a figure humiliating to blacks and shameful to whites(for it implies whites can only accept steppin fetchits).
The ideal blacks according to white liberalism have the natural force of personality but with a smiley face. And MLK was a case of black passion and anger shaped into forgiveness and love. Better MLK than Al Sharpton. Black power but with a smiley face.
Essentially, liberals are saying, 'you can marry my daughter but please don't beat me up.'

I think smart blacks know this white psychology all too well. They know that white liberals admire but are also afraid of black power/rage--just like humans are awed by but also afraid of the forces of nature. Just as man wants to constructively harness the forces of nature, white liberals want to shape and harness the power of blacks. White liberals are so in awe of black musicality, creativity, charisma, spirituality, sexuality, etc that they are addicted to Afrophilia. But they know blacks, like forces of nature, can be dangerous too.

More than white liberals, Jewish liberals have found a way to tame and work this black power. Put it on a leash. Send it to obedience school. But don't neuter it and let it bark as long as it's barking up the right tree. Then you have an Obama than a Farrakhan. But as long as dog gets to play king, it's okay with Obama, who knows what this is all about.

Hollywood also tamed Aryanism, with Arnold Schwarznegger as a Aryan superman who's usually fighting evil blue-eyed devils. In Terminator 2, Arnold is turned into a 'race traitor' against his own machine kind.

Truth said...

"I've always liked thinking of my husband and myself as Billy the Mountain and Ethel the Tree."

Now THAT, is the very definition of Midwestern White People Kitch!

Simon in London said...

Svigor:
"Lancelot is all about merit; He's the best of the best. Arthur is all about privilege; he's the chosen one. Without Excalibur and his kingdom, Arthur would lose to Lancelot. In short, Arthur is lucky, and Lancelot is good.

Similarly, Guinevere's relationship with Arthur is more arranged-marriage, but with Lancelot is chosen; privilege vs. merit, society vs. genes.

You make interesting points, though."

Yes, well - zoological Alpha & Beta is all about mating strategy - the alpha is the pack leader who gathers and defends a harem by force; the beta male is the follower or outsider, who only gets sex if he can seduce one of the alpha's females. You see this in chimps, gorillas, lions, wolves - many pack animals. It's not about morality or merit, animals don't have a moral sense.

Lancelot, in mating with Guinevere behind Arthur's back, is pursuing a Beta mating strategy. He *could* have challenged Arthur to a fight, killed him and taken his woman - that would be an Alpha mating strategy.

But finding some woman, marrying her and raising a family with her, is an Alpha strategy, even if the man doing it is small and wimpy. And if another man seduces that wife through displays of his gold chains and big muscles, that's still a beta strategy.

So: in most pack animals, most males are Betas, with Alphas rare. Among humans this is the case in eg sub-Saharan Africa, where the rare Alphas are known as the 'Big Men'. By contrast, in monogamous societies where most men marry and raise a family for which they assume responsibility, most men are Alphas, ie they are pursuing an Alpha reproductive strategy.

Anonymous said...

BLUE VELVET. Beta kid asserts himself!

Anonymous said...

Women run to alphas but also run from them. OJ and Nicole.

Though the whole affair had little to do with Othello, many commentators compared the two.

Anonymous said...

"So: in most pack animals, most males are Betas, with Alphas rare. Among humans this is the case in eg sub-Saharan Africa, where the rare Alphas are known as the 'Big Men'. By contrast, in monogamous societies where most men marry and raise a family for which they assume responsibility, most men are Alphas, ie they are pursuing an Alpha reproductive strategy."

The problem for most guys may not be competing with other alpha males but with alpha females, especially the smart pushy Jewish ones. It's alphallics vs alphemms(or alfemms).
With even alphallics losing out to the likes of Elena Kagan, they are reduced to a bunch of alphaphas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuOsB4psC9E

Simon in London said...

Anon:
'...the natural superiority of blacks...'

Hello there, Theya! >:)

Ever get the feeling there's only about six commenters on the alt-right scene?

green mamba said...

Truth crows, "Now THAT, is the very definition of Midwestern White People Kitch!"

An odd statement, given that Billy the Mountain and Ethel the Tree are characters from a Frank Zappa song set in California.

Oh, and it's spelled "kitsch".

Kylie said...

"'I've always liked thinking of my husband and myself as Billy the Mountain and Ethel the Tree.'

Now THAT, is the very definition of Midwestern White People Kitch[sic]!"


I knew someone would get it.

I should invite you over to watch "Green Acres" (my husband gave me the complete collection on DVD) and eat PEZes (he also gave me a cute little teddy bear PEZ dispenser).

Anonymous said...

A beta having to deal with one type of alpha competitor is bad enough but this guy in BV has to deal with two. The wrestler(physical alpha) and doctor(intellectual alpha).
It's like having to take on both Alan Dershowitz and Barry Sanders.

Anonymous said...

Whiskey: It won't change until we get to catastrophic Dark Ages times.

Kylie: Beyond that, I don't know what to say except that this is one of the most depressing threads I've ever read.

Yeah, every time I read a "Game" thread [either here, or at Roissy], I get the distinct feeling that the "catastrophic Dark Ages" are already upon us.

Kylie said...

"Truth crows, "Now THAT, is the very definition of Midwestern White People Kitch!"

An odd statement, given that Billy the Mountain and Ethel the Tree are characters from a Frank Zappa song set in California."


Zappa was edgy. A middle-aged housewife in a flyover state comfortably comparing her marriage to Billy and Ethel's relationship is kitschy.

Truth got that one right, I think. I bet he's even been to a Holiday Inn.

Anonymous said...

Anon:
'...the natural superiority of blacks...'

Hello there, Theya! >:)

Ever get the feeling there's only about six commenters on the alt-right scene?

---------

I was talking of liberal white perceptions, not objective facts.
And who the hell is Theya?

Anonymous said...

"Send it to obedience school."

Better yet, send it to Obamedience School.

Anonymous said...

Do you suppose alphas are more into PROJECTION while betas are more into INJECTION. Alphas, self-centered and narcissistic, project all their own faults and all that's wrong with the world on other people. We get a lot of this from pushy jerks at NY Times.

Betas, on the other hand, not only accept and acknowledge their own flaws(which they exaggerate) but INJECT the problems of other people and of the world into themselves. In BV, the wussy beta blames himself for what's wrong with the girl. Whatever goes wrong, it's all his fault.

We see this in white liberalism where whites blame themselves for blacks dropout rate, Mexican poverty, starving African children, etc, etc. They inject all the evils and tragedies around the world into their own souls. The world is suffering because of white evil or because whites aren't doing enough to save all those people in need.

James Kabala said...

This is the second time (the first being Black Swan) in recent weeks that Steve has reviewed a movie that has been reported by the press to contain extreme sexual graphicness, although Steve has not really dwelt on it either time. Assuming these reports are true (I haven't seen either film), I would be interested to see a Salier essay (and a comment thread) on this trend and what it says about the degeneration of our society.

Somehow our ancestors managed to tell serious adult stories without feeling the need for this level of explicitness. This is why I rarely go to the movies anymore. (I do, however, know enough to tell the difference between Ryan Gosling and Steve Carell - sheesh. Another typical Internet comment delivered with maximum bravado and minimum facts.)

Anonymous said...

Did you guys even watch Bull Durham?


***SPOILER ALERT***


Costner was the kindly beta who took the up-and-coming alpha, Tim Robbins, under his wing, and was promptly cuckholded by him.

Costner only gets the girl in the end when she is ditched by the now-big-leagues alpha once the alpha sees the quality of the trim in The Show.

PS: Remember the speech Costner gave the team about how they were forbidden to tell the young [beta] bridegroom that his bride was a nasty skank ho who had been pumped and dumped by every guy on the team?

PPS: Bull Durham dates from the close of the Reagan Administration - fully a generation ago. I think I'd file it more under the "Alan Alda Sensitive Male" heading, as above.

PPPS: I watched a little bit of Rocky Balboa on TV this afternoon, and I continue to be VERY impressed with Stallone's work in capturing [on film] a sense of tenderness between beta working class men and their homely working class women [Roissy 2's and 3's].

Really outstanding chemistry between him and Geraldine Hughes.

Anonymous said...

(I do, however, know enough to tell the difference between Ryan Gosling and Steve Carell - sheesh. Another typical Internet comment delivered with maximum bravado and minimum facts.)

Betas all look alike. And there's Luke Wilson in IDIOCRACY... though he ended up as an alpha in the future.

Anonymous said...

"Somehow our ancestors managed to tell serious adult stories without feeling the need for this level of explicitness."

It depends on whether it's relevant or gratuitous. Same goes for violence. Tarantino's use of violence is just ugly and demented. Peckinpah and Spielberg used it powerfully.

Kylie said...

"Somehow our ancestors managed to tell serious adult stories without feeling the need for this level of explicitness. This is why I rarely go to the movies anymore."

Same here, though for me, the foul language and general vulgarity were factors, too. The last movie I saw in a theatre was Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas back in 1998. I won't rent that crud on Netflix and I certainly don't buy the DVDs.

If you want to see an adult story without explicitness, watch Gun Crazy.

Spy said...

Huzzah @ James Kabala. Does no one here ever catch The Office? And by the way, guys, Steve Carrell looks pretty good, whatever rĂ´les this versatile character actor performs. Will Jon Hamm look as good in seven years?

Anonymous said...

Leftists seem to have no problem with this as long as a white woman is running from EVIL WHITE MALE BOURGEOIS PATRIARCHY and running into the arms of some swarthy masculine dude.

Hey, Anonymous Guy Who Likes to Use Capital Letters, how about come up with a moniker if you're going to post 5 different comments in the same thread?

Anonymous said...

Tim Robbins' character was a head case. Having a great fastball he couldn't control, easily manipulated by everyone around him, including those of the opposing team and Susan Sarradon's character, does not an alpha make.

BTW, that is far and away Tim Robbins' best role.

Anonymous said...

"Hey, Anonymous Guy Who Likes to Use Capital Letters, how about come up with a moniker if you're going to post 5 different comments in the same thread?"

Shhhhhhhh. What are you, an idiot?

Anonymous said...

"Where does the film History of Violence fit into the theme of Alpha/Beta male structure?"

It belongs in the tradition of Shane, Unforgiven, Big Boss(Bruce Lee's first movie). A natural alpha gains conscience, chooses and settles to a nice quiet peaceful life. But the past beckons or some crisis arises, and the dude is forced to revert to his alpha role. This reversion is both tragic and liberating. Tragic because he must violate his vow of peace. Liberating because it gives him an excuse to be badass mofo once again. The paradox is morality justifies violence. Though we generally equate morality with peace and love, bad guys can only be taken out by violence. Now, the question raised by both UNFORGIVEN and HISTORY OF VIOLENCE is, 'did the hero take up violence again mainly to do what is right or because he found a justification or excuse to kill again?'

HISTORY OF VIOLENCE goes further than most movies on this subject. There is merely a suggestion that the wife in SHANE is turned on by Shane's presence and violent past. In HOV, in the long rape-like scene, we see that the woman is actually turned on by her man suddenly bursting out as a alpha male wolf humping machine. She's scared by what's going on but she's also turned on by the raging hormones of fear, fight or flight, live or die, etc. In SEVEN SAMURAI the young samurai and the peasant girl finally DO IT in a state of fear which also serves a turn on. When death is near, sex is dear(cuz it's so closely related to life essence). As Beavis and Butthead might say, 'boing'.

Anonymous said...

Reading ROISSY, I learned that Gosling impresses the girl with some musical instrument. Since movies are written and directed by artistic types, the viewpoint tends to be creato-centric. So, the film could be expressing the anxiety of the creative beta males. One thing I noticed in college is that lots of ugly guys majoring in art got gorgeous chicks. Being young, impressionable, and romantic, young women--for whom future didn't exist--adored, admired, and went gaga over poetic, creative, witty, brilliant, and/or musical guys. They were charmed, as if life could only be about beauty, originality, dreams. And so, some ugly guy with an artistic persona could attract and go steady with good looking girls.
But time passes and reality sets in. The guy who seemed so poetic and creative doesn't amount to much since only 1% of artists really make it. As romance fades, the girl comes to see the guy as just an ugly pudgy nothing. She might even feel that she was hoodwinked by his bogus artistic put-ons.

But many alphas in sports prolly feel the same way. Few make it into pro sports while most end up with no skills, no jobs, no nothing. I mean what girl would care if some guy played for UCLA 10 yrs ago if he's currently working as a cook at a diner?

Mercer said...

"Yeah, an alpha who can't tell anyone his real name."

At least he uses a pseudonym. That is better then over half the commenters on this blog post.

Anonymous said...

Eastwood's MYSTIC PIZZA, now there's a classic alpha-beta match-up.

Anonymous said...

Alphas and betas, it's kinda like Bluto and Popeye. Not the Popeye of the original comic book or the really early cartoons where he was a tough guy(even without the spinach) but in the later cartoons where he was mostly an amiable beta male who mostly got pushed around by bigger alpha male Bluto until he ate some spinach. So, what beta males need to do is find whatever that works as the spinach in their life.
But then women can be strange sometimes, ditching both the alpha and beta for something unexpectha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGT7TqMCQ9s

Anonymous said...

The biggest beta male of all time has to be Charlie Brown. The funny thing about the PEANUTS universe is it has no alpha males. Linus is some weird kid who gets beat up by his sister and worships the great pumpkin. Schroeder is a music geek. The only alphas are Snoopy, Lucy, and Peppermint Patty but one's a dog and the other two are girls.

But CB does get his revenge here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=codEc4P016E

Nine-of-Diamonds said...

"This is the second time (the first being Black Swan) in recent weeks that Steve has reviewed a movie that has been reported by the press to contain extreme sexual graphicness..."

Not really. BV has two scenes with bare female breasts & three sex scenes where clothes are strategically placed. None of the scenes were all that titillating b/c the characters' dislike for each other was palpable; this emotional tension completely overwhelms any eroticism.

Anonymous said...

In some ways, betas never had it so good, at least in the non-NAM community. Of course, it may be more of a challenge to find a nice girl and settle down as a lot of girls now go to college and seek careers, but a lot of betas today choose not to settle down because they wanna stay 17 forever. They may be interested in girls but they are more into freedom to choose--videogames, dvds, partying with buddies, going to concerts, computers, social networking. And in our hookup culture, most of them get some action now and then anyway. And there's also tons of porn which keep getting more accessible and more virtual yr after yr.
In Japan, you even have this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGfaQCY_bo4
How long before they create dolls that can talk and walk and...?

I know some people whose main hobby is traveling around to attend concerts with recording equipment. It's such an all-encompassing passion that they would choose that settling down and raising a family like their dads. They prefer flexible part time job over full time job because they love their freedom and fun.
Back in the 50s, full grown men who were more into hobbies and recreation than settling down would have been looked down on. They would have considered weird and come under social pressure--family and peer. But, a lot of betas today get to play with new kinds of toys forever. And though they may gripe about girls, they are loving their endless youth. I think GREENBERG was a movie about that kind of guy(though I haven't seen it).

Also, at least in non-NAM communities, things are much more sensitive and 'tolerant' than in the past. Weirdos and 'losers'--and even gays or minorities--don't get picked on or bullied anymore. Today's definition of 'bullying' can be really wimpy compared to the old days when bullying meant you got beat up. Today, even getting called names is considered bullying. Today, most kids are left alone and not bullied, and there's little pressure on them to conform to some social ideal. The ideal is self-esteem and self-actualization.
They are not pushed around for being 'losers' or 'outcasts'--though whites males come under pressure for possible 'racism'.

Anonymous said...

In the movie CRUMB, Robert tells of a time when his older brother was beat up real bad in school, and that sort of thing was tolerated even by school officials. It was a way of putting the 'losers' in their place. Betas in this environment had a much tougher time. And Buchanan in RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING boasts of how he hung around alpha kids and pushed around the lesser kids with macho glee. And kids who were 'different' were belittled, mocked, pushed around, even beaten up. Well that was then, this is now.

So, this beta male victimhood stuff in BV sounds like an insipid whine. It's not worthy of our sympathy. It's kinda like how today's blacks, gays, women, Hispanics, Asians, etc all bitch and whine about 'victimhood'. Not because of real victimhood but because it's fashionable to do so. And now this mentality is spreading to white males too. For chrissakes, where's Vito Corleone when we need him? He slapped Johnny Fontane and said, 'YOU CAN ACT LIKE A MAN!'

WHEN A MAN LOVES A WOMAN's message is that white male is the victim too--of his own stubborn strength and manly resolve, which is really just a kind of repression. So, Andy Garcia is shown to be wiser at the end when he too pours out his heart. The movie says the problem of being strong and solid is it makes others--like the wife--depend on you. She is liberated by separating from his solid presence, by being in the presence of others who are equally needy. No matter how decent and loving he was, he was a bad influence on her because he was too strong. She felt intimidated by his strength and found solace in alcohol. But she regains her self-esteem in the presence of fellow 'victims'. So, Andy Garcia learns that it was really his fault. He was too strong and there for her. He was a patriarch, even if a soft kind. For her to be liberated and for him to improve his soul, he too must whine like a baby.
What a miserable message!!
If BV got one thing right, women don't go for that shit either.

But really, as my mother and father used to tell me when I wouldn't eat my spinach as a child: there are starving kids in China. So, these wusses don't deserve any sympathy from us. THEY CAN ACT LIKE A MAN.
And it's this kind of wussiness which leads to the other extreme, the crazy FIGHT CLUB mentality.

Anonymous said...

What's worse? An alpha losing his woman to a beta or vice versa? In COMING HOME, Bruce Dern the tough soldier loses his wife to some paraplegic. I mean that must hurt.

Anonymous said...

"Eastwood's MYSTIC PIZZA, now there's a classic alpha-beta match-up."

LOL, that would be Mystic River - Mystic Pizza is an indie chich flick from 1988.

I love how the commenters here date themselves. Heated discussions of "Bull Durham"!

Severn said...

One reason why many people regard the oppression of blacks as especially unjust could be due to the sense that the naturally superior or alpha race had been subjugated by a beta race.

Do "many people" really regard blacks as being the "superior race"? Seems to me that being captured in Africa (by your fellow blacks) and sold to pick cotton as slaves in other countries is not exactly the working definition of the master race.

Kylie said...

"I love how the commenters here date themselves. Heated discussions of 'Bull Durham'!"

Huh? You make it sound as thought the commenters here thought Bull Durham was a new release.

You should toddle on over to the IMDb, which is frequented mostly by younger adults and teen types. I checked the messageboards of several movies mentioned in this thread (Mystic River, Mystic Pizza, Shane, Bull Durham, When a Man Loves a Woman) and all had messages posted this month.

DLTDHYITAOTWO.

Anonymous said...

"One reason why many people regard the oppression of blacks as especially unjust could be due to the sense that the naturally superior or alpha race had been subjugated by a beta race."

"Do 'many people' really regard blacks as being the 'superior race'? Seems to me that being captured in Africa (by your fellow blacks) and sold to pick cotton as slaves in other countries is not exactly the working definition of the master race."

Consciously NO since the idea of 'superior race' is the most politically incorrect thing one can imagine today. But subconsciously it depends. Scientifically, mathematically, economically, philosophically, theologiclly, technologically NO. But most people don't pay attention to such things. To most Americans, the biggest brains are funny 'geeks'. In our consumer-hedonistic-sports-crazy-super-size-me-mega-orgasm society and culture, a people's worth is measured by musicality, sensuality, athleticism, charisma, etc. We may calmly and rationally admire Steve Jobs but we go CRAZY about music stars and athletes. And movie stars. Since there's a feeling that blacks are more charismatic, sensual, sexual, forceful, and masterful in the 'popular' areas, there is a feeling, at least among unwashed masses, that blacks are a lot cooler and superior... certainly more than, say, those Asian geeks, Mexican lawn mowers, and Nashville hee-haw dung-hoppers. Asian geeks may socially do better and Mexican lawn mowers may work harder than blacks, but that's not how superiority is measured in our society.
This was true even in Nazi Germany. Though Nazis made a big deal about German genius, much of Aryan superiority was expressed through film, art, sculpture, music, athleticism--things that engaged the senses right away. Thus, a person awed by Aryan physique and athleticism tended to look down on geeky grubby Jews even if lots of Jews were intellectually and economically accomplished.
Since superiority in sports and musical power is easier/simpler to measure, there's a sense that it's the most honest and noblest kind of superiority. The best man wins the 100 m sprint. But in other human endeavors, there is the perception that success was gained through connections and corruption. Women complain of 'old-boys-network', blacks complain of 'white-boys-network', and Kevin Macdonald complains of 'Jewish-boys-network'.

Truth said...

"But most people don't pay attention to such things. To most Americans, the biggest brains are funny 'geeks'."

So I take it that means you wouldn't mind switching places with Stephen Hawking?

Anonymous said...

Maybe it was not such a great idea to have a generation of kids grow up watching Mr. Roger's Neighborhood and Pee Wee Herman.

Anonymous said...

Is this like Wuthering Heights, Mandingo, and that awful movie Piano?

Mandingo wasn't an awful movie?

Anonymous said...

"Maybe it was not such a great idea to have a generation of kids grow up watching Mr. Roger's Neighborhood and Pee Wee Herman."

Priceless, just priceless. One of my all-time favs on Sailer's blog.

Anonymous said...

I saw a movie called GRIZZLY MAN and, boy, does it throw a monkey wrench into the alpha vs beta argument. (Btw, it should be called Grisly Dork.)
On the one hand, the dude was a classic alpha. Athlete in highschool, drinker and partier, assertive, outgoing, fearless, etc.
But in another way, he was an ultra-beta. Talked like Sesame Street muppet, loved Teddy Bears, hung around passive liberal flakes, and couldn't garner respect from normal society.

In some ways, I got to thinking... only a crazy beta could have done what he did. An alpha, acute to the nature of power, would pick up on danger signals right away. Alpha knows when to fight, when to take flight. They know power is a ruthless business. They are like wolves.
Betas are like dogs. They wanna be amiable and belong and fit in, to be accepted by the larger society. Even as Timothy left humanity behind, he desired to fit into the bear community. And instead of seeing bears as bears, he saw them as 'friends', like the muppets on Sesame Street.
But then, you need alpha balls to take it as far as he did.

A kind of cross between Richard Simmons(patron saint of fatsoes) and Che Guevara(who went into the jungle to save the poor who had no idea what he was about). How people delude themeselves! Well, at least Simmons got rich off it. Still, it could be said Timothy was more genuine in his commitment than Steve Irwin who was in it for the money. But Timothy, even while removing himself from humanity, cannot help making all these youtube-like videos of himself to connect with people.
Fitting that it was made by Wernor Herzog. In his film AGUIRRE, the mad conquistador is the sole survivor at the end and sees himself as the king of the monkeys. Timothy saw himself as the Jesus of the bears. But for all his professed love of nature, his personality is such a product of American mass culture. He's like an 'ugly american' in nature.

Anyway, the most screwed up guys are a jumble of alpha and beta traits, thus unable to find emotional stability.
After Grizzly Man, I saw AMERICAN RADICAL, which is also kinda weird. It's about a Jewish guy who goes amongst Palestinians, acting almost as their messiah. I hope he has better luck than Timmy did with the bears.

Anonymous said...

There are two kinds of girls. Clingers and Cringers. Clingers cling to their men. It's just their personality. Cringers cringe when their men are no longer worthy of manly respect. Cringers may also be called climbers.

Anonymous said...

Was there a subplot about alcoholism? I heard other people say it's about Gosling's character being a drunk. Something that could mess up any marriage. And has.

Anonymous said...

Kevin Macdonald complains of 'Jewish-boys-network'

If the 'Jewish-boys-network' doesn't exist, then how do you explain a Natalie Portman or a Shia LaBeouf?

'Cause I can guaran-dadgum-tee you that a Natalie Shiksa or a Shia Shegetz would never in their lives get a single call-back from a Hollyweird casting director.

Anonymous said...

"If the 'Jewish-boys-network' doesn't exist, then how do you explain a Natalie Portman or a Shia LaBeouf?
'Cause I can guaran-dadgum-tee you that a Natalie Shiksa or a Shia Shegetz would never in their lives get a single call-back from a Hollyweird casting director."

Natalie Portman is pretty and talented. Her role in LEON THE PRO was brilliant... though that was a pretty seedy and sordid movie in more than ways than one.
She was very good in ANYWHERE BUT HERE and WHERE THE HEART IS too. She was wasted in STAR WARS movies but how could she decline that opportunity? (Btw, did Lucas hire her cuz he's Jewish and she's Jewish? But he's not Jewish.)
She was in some bad movies, and I intensely dislike her personally for her role in V FOR VEND.
But she's certainly more talented than Anne Hathaway or whole bunch of blonde nobodies in Hollywood.

It's too bad Hollywood didn't make better use of the girls in DAZED AND CONFUSED. They were good looking and talented... though Parker Posey did find a cultish niche in moviedom. But I think the girl who played the feminist and the girl who played the older sister(Michelle Burke was it?) had real promise, but Hollywood passed them over. There was a good looking blonde too.

Anonymous said...

Anon, did you even SEE Bull Durham?

Crash rejected Annie: "I'm not interested in any woman interested in that boy." right after the "Cock/Pussy" speech that made her wet her knickers. He rejected her again when she threw herself at him when she wasn't getting any during the winning streak.

The whole movie was a tribute to HBD: the intelligent, passionate ballplayer, short on skill and just hanging on, helping the airheaded kid with the million-dollar arm and ten-cent head. I always though the sequel wrote itself; Crash as the successful, Bobby Cox-like manager mentoring Nuke's airheaded but talented son.

I see Nuke Laloosh as one of those guys who kicked around the majors for a few years and either ended up coaching some high school or living on the street like so many dumbass pro athletes. Today's Boston Globe has the story of Ray Williams, former NBA star who earned tens of millions of dollars in his career, living in the back of '92 Buick.

And who were the guys to bail him out? Former Boston Celtic teammates Kevin McHale and Larry Bird, Spike Lee's Favorite player!

See ya at the yard, Meat...

Brutus

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N5FBXs1ZWw

Anyone see MIRACLE MILE? Belongs in the 'yuppie nightmare' genre, along with AFTER HOURS and SOMETHING WILD. Oddly enough, made when the Cold War was just winding down.
The lead male was in REVENGE OF THE NERDS, typical beta male actor of the 80s, a kind of Andrew McCarthy-lite(which means really really lite).
The concept of MM is great material(for satire, vision of hell, tragic romance, etc) and I wonder what Lynch or Kubrick could have done with it. Too bad it was made in the MTV teen comedy vein of the 80s--a combo of 'lawyers in love' music video and WAR GAMES.
The love angle--three pairs of lovers amidst impending doom(four if we count a gay pair)--is handled too clumsily for emotional impact. But the overall effect of the movie is unshakable and gave me the most frightening nightmare last night. I thought I was in the presense of Devil himself--no he wasn't red and he didn't have horns.

And even though the Cold War ended with a nuclear war, what happened in LA with the riots makes this a prescient movie.
Not great but special.

Anonymous said...

Natalie Portman is pretty and talented.

I can't really get beyond that sentence...

Her role in LEON THE PRO was brilliant.

...except to make note of your taste in child pornography.

Truth said...

"The whole movie was a tribute to HBD: the intelligent, passionate ballplayer, short on skill and just hanging on, helping the airheaded kid with the million-dollar arm and ten-cent head"

Yeah, but uh, both of them were white, and the D in HBD stands for difference.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, thanks for the heads up on the Ray Williams thing. Not on topic but very interesting...

Anonymous said...

"Her role in LEON THE PRO was brilliant."

"...except to make note of your taste in child pornography."

That's why I said the movie was seedy and sordid. It does have pedophilic undertones. It's like Lolita where the sexual energy is unleashed through the gun.

Mr. Anon said...

"Truth said...

""The whole movie was a tribute to HBD: the intelligent, passionate ballplayer, short on skill and just hanging on, helping the airheaded kid with the million-dollar arm and ten-cent head""

Yeah, but uh, both of them were white, and the D in HBD stands for difference."

Guess we all look the same to you, huh "Truth"?

Tom V said...

Truth:

Yeah, but uh, both of them were white, and the D in HBD stands for difference.

Projecting again, eh? There are all kinds of differences (or "diversity," to be precise), of which race is just one. This endless thread about alpha vs beta concerns almost exclusively differences in people of the same sex and race.

Truth said...

"This endless thread about alpha vs beta concerns almost exclusively differences in people of the same sex and race."

HUMAN......BIOLOGICAL.....DIFFERENCE.

JSM said...

"This endless thread about alpha vs beta concerns almost exclusively differences in people of the same sex and race."

HUMAN......BIOLOGICAL.....DIFFERENCE."

Who says Alpha and Beta aren't biological? There's some argument maybe it is, and so learning "game" just won't work for betas.

Mr. Anon said...

"JSM said...

""This endless thread about alpha vs beta concerns almost exclusively differences in people of the same sex and race."
HUMAN......BIOLOGICAL.....DIFFERENCE.""

Who says Alpha and Beta aren't biological? There's some argument maybe it is, and so learning "game" just won't work for betas."

Don't bother arguing with "Truth". He can't understand complicated things, as he only has a third-grade mentality.

ben tillman said...

HUMAN......BIOLOGICAL.....DIFFERENCE.

Human biodiversity, Sport.

Truth said...

How does that work out to a three-letter acronym?

Anonymous said...

i really enjoyed the performances, but the plot really bothered me. Here's a guy who offers to support this woman through a pregnancy with another man's baby, takes a beating for it, then as she rises up in status she becomes disinterested in him. He's happy being a painter, but she is not. Why wasn't this issue discussed pre getting married? oh because she needed some support and now doesn't?

And this is the problem with women, they will never accept a man for who he is. A man will marry a woman with a shit job and have no problems, but a woman doing the same thing? forget it.

And when the marriage ended for Dean, does he get half? no he gets shit. he gets to support this woman through a tough time and get thrown out when she gets through said tough time to rise in status and realize she can do better?