November 24, 2010

An English review of Sarrazin

Via Arnold Kling, David Goodhart, editor of the U.K. Prospect, reviews Thilo Sarrazin's book Germany Abolishes Itself in his magazine, which may have been the best intellectual journal in the English language over the last decade:
Thilo Sarrazin, a minor German politician on the technocratic wing of the country’s Social Democratic party, has just written what is probably the bestselling political book in postwar Europe (1m copies in hardback and counting). Everyone in Germany knows at least a simplified version of what Germany Abolishes Itself says, and the reaction to the book is helping to drive government policy on minority integration.

The message of the book, in headline form, is that Germany is becoming smaller (thanks to the familiar story of a falling birthrate among native Germans) and stupider (thanks to the fact that educated Germans are having fewer children and the fastest growing part of the population are poorly-integrated Muslim immigrants). That “stupider” is, of course, contested and has led to accusations of a flirtation with eugenics—of which more later.

But Sarrazin is no right-wing populist in the image of Jörg Haider, the late Austrian politician, or even Geert Wilders, the anti-Islamic leader of the Party for Freedom in the Netherlands. Much of the book is a dry compendium of economic and social data. Indeed, I suspect his book is the political equivalent of Stephen Hawking’s A Brief History of Time—much purchased but little read. Although controversy has swirled around his comments on group intelligence and the failure of German immigration policy, there is little in German public policy that he does not also take his axe to: welfare policy, education and training policy (apparently Britain now has a much higher proportion of students studying maths, science and technology than Germany), the poverty lobby and more. In fact, it is a meticulously prepared trashing of the liberal pieties of the 1968 generation.

The political and media class’s initial instinct was to denounce the book, and Sarrazin was forced out of his job at the Bundesbank. But as sales started to take off and as the new social media—the bloggers and emailers—lined up overwhelmingly behind Sarrazin, the reaction of political Germany shifted, albeit grudgingly. Chancellor Angela Merkel opportunistically declared the happy-clappy multikulti of the German left to have “failed utterly.” There was even a respectful and self-critical essay in Der Spiegel magazine by a leading liberal, Peter Schneider.

This shift is rather remarkable and it may help to prevent the rise of a serious right-wing force equivalent to France’s National Front. As the book complains, German public debate has, for obvious historical reasons, been more constrained by various kinds of taboos about national culture than any other big European country. As recently as 2000 a leading Christian Democrat politician, Friedrich Merz, had his political career damaged by merely asking that minorities show respect for the law and institutions of the dominant culture (Leitkultur). In the ensuing row the then-president of Germany, Johannes Rau, declared that he was not proud to be German.

Nowhere in Europe is the gap between public opinion and published opinion as wide as in Germany. And nowhere has public policy been more influenced by a 1960s generation, post-national, society-is-to-blame kind of liberalism. Yet this “official” liberalism has never reflected the way people live and think, even in the German chattering classes. When I lived in the country, 20 years ago, it felt far more socially conservative than the similar circles I had come from in London.

Another difference that struck me was the invisibility of the Turks and the other big minorities living in Germany, compared with the relative visibility of Britain’s minorities. I later worked out why this was. There was what Peter Schneider calls an “unholy alliance” between left and right to pretend that Germany did not have an integration issue—especially amongst its Turkish, middle eastern and north African minorities. By 1990, there were more than 2m Turks living in Germany, many of them second and third generation. Yet the Christian Democratic right still refused to accept that some of the “guest workers” who had arrived in the 1950s and 1960s had come to stay—and rejected the idea that Germany was an “immigration country.” This meant that they put no effort or money into turning Turks into Germans. As for the anti-national left, the idea that the exotic Turks should be forced to learn the language of the SS was equally abhorrent. So the mainly Muslim minorities were left alone in their parallel worlds.

I would add my impression after a couple of weeks in Turkey attending Hans-Hermann Hoppe's Property and Freedom Society conference in Bodrum, which is kind of like the Santa Barbara of Turkey, is that Turks don't particularly want to make spectacles of themselves either. In some ways, Turks and Germans seem pretty similar in personality, although Turks don't drink much, so they are less likely to loosen up after a few beers the way introverted Germans sometimes do.

The most obvious personality differences are in neuroticism and conscientiousness. Germans tend to be energetic worrywarts, while Turks are more sedate and easygoing. This makes driving in Turkey less alarming than I had expected. Even though winding country roads in Turkey feature vehicles of wildly different maximum velocities, from S-Class Mercedes to the common sight of a farmer driving a tractor pulling an open wagon holding a dozen middle aged ladies in head scarves, Turks in slower vehicles are pretty good about pulling over to let faster cars go by. It's a polite culture.

On the other hand, there are lots of stray dogs around because they aren't really into worrying and organizing about things like that.

If I were a Turk I'd be proud of being a Turk and would have no problem coming up with reasons why I shouldn't conform to the neurotic culture of the Germans. Who cares about stray dogs?

Add in Islam ...
... The fact that Muslim migrants perform poorly in the context of German society does not, however, support the outlandish claim that they are inherently stupider than Germans or other minorities. Sarrazin does not quite say this but he does assert that their poor performance is dragging down the country’s average ability level—something that could probably be said of most of Europe’s immigrant groups from poor countries, at least for a generation or two.

Turks in Germany are well into a third generation. How's that working out?

Much of the issue is upon whom should the burden of proof be placed. Germany is currently 45 years into a massive social experiment. So far, the vast majority of the evidence is on the side of Sarrazin. Social scientists Detlef Rost and Heiner Rindermann conclude: "As far as the psychological aspects of his book are concerned, they are largely compatible with the state of knowledge in modern psychological research."

Not surprisingly, the political class in Germany thinks, however, that it's all much too soon to tell. Germany should merely wait another 45 years, by which time everybody responsible for the current situation will be beyond blaming. What could be fairer?

Goodhart goes on to repeat the standard embarrassing sophistries about intelligence, which is depressing in reminding us that a good guy like Goodheart is reduced to this in today's anti-intelligence intellectual world. But, he concludes:
Ultimately, Sarrazin’s hard-headedness is a welcome counterpoint to the wishful thinking of the 1968 generation. The former finance minister of Berlin, who looks like a soldier in the Kaiser’s army, is a member of the awkward squad. You can imagine him causing minor riots at liberal Berlin dinner parties. Most of his argument is clear-eyed and well-informed, but he could not resist the provocations both on intelligence and on the nature of the underclass, which he never bothers to define. Yet the fact that his book has been so influential, despite the provocations, marks an important step forward for Germany—not only in facing up to the failures of its past immigration policies, but also in bridging the wide gap between popular opinion and the political class and thus preventing a German Haider.

78 comments:

Anonymous said...

The average intelligence of Turks in Germany is appallingly low, certainly lower than that of Turkey as a whole (IQ 90) – probably no higher than that of African-Americans.
(The average IQ in Germany is 103, which means it must be somewhat higher for ethnic Germans: if the figure is 85 for German Turks, then the majority are essentially noncompetitive in German society.)

German Turks come from the lowest, most rural, and least educated strata of Turkish society – where cousin marriage is most frequent. In Europe, the topic of incest among Muslims is almost as much a taboo as the topic of race and IQ, but it is clearly a key contributing factor to low cognitive ability.

Everyone in Germany is acutely aware that a large proportion of German Turks would be classified as mentally retarded if they were ethnic Germans, and that only a very few Muslims are capable of qualifying for Gymnasium, and hence of entering university and professional life.

Discussions about quotas for Muslims in Germany raises the specter of affirmative action being embraced here.
It is a shame that Sarrazin felt pressured into censoring statements about race and IQ from recent editions of his book.

Hail said...

"Turks don't particularly want to make spectacles of themselves either. In some ways, Turks and Germans seem pretty similar in personality."

Steve, you obviously have no experience with Turks in Europe. When one sees a group of young Turk males in a German city, one is reminded of a group of young black males in a U.S. inner-city. The gang of Turks is loud, moderately aggressive, self-consciously "cool", lazily looking to intimidate others. (While Turks are not as violent as blacks, the basic pattern of behavior is the same). Young Turk males in Germany have some strange haircuts, too. I can't quite figure that out.

This might be explained by Turk immigrants in the EU being drawn from the lowest elements of the Turkish population.

Hail said...

But Sarrazin is no right-wing populist

Indeed.

“The Turks will take over Germany in exactly the same way as the Albanians took over Kosovo: By means of a higher birthrate. I’d find this appealing, if it were Eastern-European Jews — with their IQs 15%-higher than the German population.” (—Thilo Sarrazin, October 2009, interview in "Lettre International")

In what way would a future Germany of Ashkenazi-descendants rather than Turk-descendants NOT be "Germany abolishing itself", one wonders.

Or maybe he just made that Jewish remark to score easy PC points in a conversation straying into non-PC territory. Who knows.

Hail said...

Nowhere in Europe is the gap between public opinion and published opinion as wide as in Germany.

Going by attitudes towards ancestry and citizenship, the "gap" is class-based, at least among the young. For Germans born after 1975: The higher their social class, the more likely they are to embrace Polite ("published") Opinion of the "post-national, society-is-to-blame kind" variety.

Anonymous said...

Sorry to be pompous and pedantic Steve, but the verb 'wait' as in 'to wait for a bus' is spelled entirely different to 'weight' which means the heft or heaviness of a massive object.
Sorry, but that little faux-pas just stood out glaringly from your text and demanded immediate correction from the schoolmaster in me.

Sorry.

Anonymous said...

Hey there, Haider, Ho there we're as happy as can be! M-I-C, K-E-Y, I come from Tur-ah-key!

headache said...

"and thus preventing a German Haider."
That's all these characters worry about.

As a German I find turkish culture to be superficially arrogant, macho and generally unpleasant, and very unlike traditional German culture. I don't know where you come up with the similarities.

Anonymous said...

Goodheart goes on to repeat the standard embarrassing sophistries about intelligence, which is depressing in reminding us that a good guy like Goodheart is reduced to this in today's anti-intelligence intellectual world.

The topic that dare not speak its name.

Maybe everyone who wants to discuss this publicly should use a pseudonym, like La Griffe?

-- JP98

Fernandinande said...

...the outlandish claim that they are inherently stupider than Germans or other minorities.

They never give up, do they?

Here's an outlandish claim about the Dutch; not Germans, but close enough:

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=79847

Evidence from eleven samples indicates that the mean IQ of third world immigrants in the Netherlands is lower than the Dutch mean by approximately one standard deviation for Surinamese and Antillians, and by approximately one and a half standard deviations for Turks and Moroccans.

LemmusLemmus said...

What one needs to understand when thinking about Turkey and the Turks in Germany is that the Turks who came over here in the 1960s and 70s were not a random selection of the Turkish population. The phrase my father likes to use is "the Anatolian farmer's son"; he also recalls visiting Turkey and being told by his host right away that "the people who moved to your country - they're not like us". I've never actually seen any numbers on this, but it's plausible enough. If you're, say, a successful dentist working in Istanbul, why would you want to leave your country to work in a factory in Frankfort?

Combine that with a whole ethnicity starting out at the bottom of the latter and, yes, very real xenophobia on the part of many Germans, and it's not hard to see why second- and third-generation Turks, especially the males, cluster at the bottom in terms of education, earnings and violent behaviour.

Black Sea said...

Turks frequently comment that, though they resent the anti-Turkish sentiments they encounter -- or at least hear about -- in Germany, they also at least partially understand them. Many of the Turks living in Germany are far cry from the well-heeled Turks you encounter in Bodrum, and are viewed as "country-cousins," not particularly well-suited to life in a modern European state. Nor are their descendants.

Well-educated Turks living in or visiting Germany are actually rather embarrassed by, and simultaneously defensive about, the behavior of the Turkish underclass in Germany.

Anonymous said...

Concerning your comment "On the other hand, there are lots of stray dogs around because they aren't really into worrying and organizing about things like that."

That comment is based on ignorance. Since the AK party ascendance, there has been a change in how strays are dealt with. In the past, killing strays was the norm. Killing for the sake of killing (convenience, nuisance etc...) is now frowned upon by practicing Muslims. You might have noticed tags on most of the dog’s ears. Dogs are rounded up, neutered, tagged, and released.

Many practicing Turks consider it barbaric to put down a dog without justification. Being ownerless is not justification to kill another animal.

W Baker said...

Steve in your last paragraph are you playing on words? Germans should weight (or wait) another 45 years? Perhaps in another 45 years of brushing shoulders with the laid back Turks, the old Frauen will be even more heavy....?

Simon in London said...

" Yet this “official” liberalism has never reflected the way people live and think, even in the German chattering classes. When I lived in the country, 20 years ago, it felt far more socially conservative than the similar circles I had come from in London."

Definitely true of Germany, and true of France also - as is the 'invisibility' of their non-white immigrants. I was once particularly surprised on a visit to the Netherlands to discover it was even true of the Dutch!

Who amongst the global elites actually believes in Political Correctness/cultural Marxism? Americans seem to have most heavily internalised much of c-M dialectic, probably because the Frankfurt School tailored it specifically for American intellectual culture. It hits certain New England Yankee/WASP moral, political and religious buttons with exquisite effectiveness.
Next, the Anglosphere - UK, Canada, Australia & NZ. Then possibly the Swedes, whose self-esteem seems bound up in feelings of superiority through commitment to their version of c-M. Amongst other European elites it seems to be almost entirely a public religion, not reflected in private practice.

Dextrology said...

Weight should be wait.

Ray Sawhill said...

Related:

LINK

Chicago said...

His review seems pretty mundane and commonplace, something that could have been written by a 21 year old. The PC assumptions are all there though; Turks will get smarter after a few years, no question about that. The interesting part to me is that the author, as well as others I assume, sizes up the utility of Sarazzin in creating a political position that would prevent a harder line from emerging. This would be a way for the establishment to thwart what the public really wants by promoting a tamer version. Co-opting political movements by setting up watered down versions to divert the public is what governments do to maintain control.

Ray Sawhill said...

I must have had a different experience of Turkey than some.

Just got back from a week in Istanbul and thought the city was great and Turks are cool. But I'd never characterize the Turks I encountered and dealt with as "sedate and easygoing." Istanbul's a crowded, high-pitched, noisy, jam-packed city. And most of the guys I ran across in it were loud, boisterous jokers and clowns, always on the alert for ways to make money. Getting pickpocketed, being cheated by cab drivers, and being accosted dozens of times a day by shop owners who all but drag you bodily into their stores ... All are commonplace. It was a fun visit, wish 'em well, etc. But I had a hard time keeping the thought "It's a nation of rug merchants!" out of my mind.

While I was there I read an article in the local edition of Time Out by an American woman who was complaining about dating Turkish guys, who (though she'd initially been charmed by them) she now found tiresomely jokey, untrustworthy, and overly-emotional -- she described them as being like big babies, fun but exhausting. So I assume my experience wasn't unique.

But Steve's describing Turks that he met outside Istanbul, so maybe it's an Istanbul thing?

Elbrac said...

OT.

Mark Steyn interview. The End of the World as We Know It.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQELHJx8Vf0&feature=player_embedded

carol said...

Playing devil's advocate, I read that Germany does not provide a "clear path to citizenship" (ugh) so the chances of assimilation are especially low.

Should we provide the "path" to NAMs here so at least if we have to put up with them, there's a highly likelihood of shedding their 3rd world ways and become assets rather than liabilities ot the US, within 2-3 generations?

If we can indeed "weight" that long..

Anonymous said...

Steve, spell checker got you - 'wait' not 'weight'; 3rd to last paragraph. No need to post this comment.

Kylie said...

"If I were a Turk I'd be proud of being a Turk and would have no problem coming up with reasons why I shouldn't conform to the neurotic culture of the Germans."

Indeed. And if you were a Turk living in Turkey, you should be proud of being a Turk and should have no problem coming up with reasons why you shouldn't conform to the neurotic culture of the Germans.

That is what you meant, isn't it?

Anonymous said...

I would guess that the following would present somewhat of a problem for any third-worlders trying to integrate into German society:

As far as I can tell, Germans are unique in their habit of writing in extremely long, convoluted sentences. Ideas that in English would be typically expressed by 3 or 4 sentences are routinely written out as a single sentence with multiple dependent clauses in German. By the time you get to the end of a sentence like that, you run the risk of forgetting its beginning, causinjg you to misunderstand the meaning of the whole thing. The size of working memory is highly correlated with IQ. A low-IQ person who's mastered conversational German would still probably find it pretty difficult to read anything in it.

Anonymous said...

Who cares about their IQs? The issue is racial and cultural, not economic. All this talk about IQs and "HBD" is simply a place where cowards go to avoid directly confronting the forces committing genocide against them. If IQ or economic performance is the test then you've already conceded that someone else has as legitimate a claim to your territory as you do. Imagine if someone showed up on your doorstep waving his excellent test scores and informing you that he now has the right to move into your house, have instant say in all household decisions, and that he will eventually own your house, and at that time will kick your children to the curb. The proper response is not to argue about his qualifications, it's to put the dog on him.

Anonymous said...

How much better off would Germany be right now if instead of importing Turkish workers it had imported North Korean workers instead?

Germany today would be almost 100% a combination of "white" and northeast asian. Germany would have by far the highest IQ in Europe

Average IQ in Germany would be rising each year instead of falling.

Imagine what could have been.

Harmonious Jim said...

"The most obvious personality difference is in neuroticism. Germans tend to be energetic worrywarts, while Turks are more sedate and easygoing."

Turks as calm, even-tempered, satisfied, comfortable, unemotional? Germans as worrying, temperamental, self-pitying, self-conscious, emotional?

I doubt it.

I think the main difference is in conscientiousness. Germans as hardworking, well-organized, punctual, ambitious, persevering. Turks as (comparatively) negligent, lower work ethic, disorganized, unpunctual, quitting.

Anonymous said...

"Germany should merely weight another 45 years," fourth word should be 'wait'...

Anonymous said...

Yeah, Germany in general is a pretty conservative society, at least by Western standards. I think what we're seeing is some level of fatigue towards self-hate over WWII. Also, a realization that letting the country turn Turkish Muslim is not a good way to atone for the sins of past generations.

Germany, after decades of dealing with large arrivals of refugees and family reunification, has now pretty much stopped immigration effectively. This has been done with the acquiesence of the right and labor-left of Germany, who've used all sorts of rules and bueracratic procedures to keep out unwanted migrants, especially Turks. With the labor-left, there is a fear that immigrants take jobs and drive down wages. With the right, there's a fear that they have a negative impact on the national culture. Both groups also feel that immigrants don't really fit and don't feel too guilty about keeping them out.

Germany is unique in that immigration restrictionism has been pushed by the elite, as much as the grassroots.

The issue is now how to increase native birthrates and how to deal with high Muslim/immigrant birthrates, which nobody has figured out.

As a group, Turks aren't all that bad either. If you look at Turkey, it's a respectable middle income country, with a highly disciplined military and a number of strong businessmen.

In comparison to a lot of other countries, Germany is basically in okay shape. With Sarazzin calling attention to differential birthrates, hopefully Germany can figure out a good natalist policy, like France has done, and also figure out how to stop subsidizing high immigrant fertility. A Sailer solution for buying out the citizenship of the more troublesome immigrants might not be a bad idea either....

eh said...

Alle wissen: Sarrazin hat Recht

Everyone knows Sarrazin is right.

Meaning if you live in Europe, you don't have to read his book.

This meant that they put no effort or money into turning Turks into Germans.

I think this is definitely not true, in general, and most especially not true of recent years.

...the outlandish claim that they are inherently stupider than Germans or other minorities.

It's hard to take altogether seriously a review that so obviously turns a cold shoulder to any suggestion of a hereditary link to average intelligence across a population.

Who cares about stray dogs?

Some people do. And for good reason. Ditto.

...and on the nature of the underclass, which he never bothers to define.

He doesn't have to define them -- they're the ones who live for years and years on Hartz IV. Everyone knows who they are. And also who in the political class makes, practically speaking, a near lifetime without working possible.

Anonymous said...

There is NOTHING more PERMANENT then "temporary labour".

As a side note Mr. Sailer, just yesterday Chandra Levy's killer was convicted of first degree murder. I couldn't help but notice the media never made any mention of the fact that he was an illegal alien, and had already been in trouble with the police. Indeed had he been deported Chandra would be alive today. I remember how the media made such a roar about Gary Condit - all but convicting him - (the great white defendent syndrome?) then dropping the whole matter completely when 9/11 happened. Any thoughts Mr. Sailer on this whole sordid episode?

Anonymous said...

you over-praise people and/or publications that you agree with.

it's all too much, matey.

eh said...

For Germans born after 1975:...

I don't know:

Young Germans don't want Turkish neighbors

Or maybe they're just hypocrites like so many other people.

Svigor said...

I've never actually seen any numbers on this, but it's plausible enough. If you're, say, a successful dentist working in Istanbul, why would you want to leave your country to work in a factory in Frankfort?

Well, when you put it that way, yeah.

But wouldn't a successful Turkish dentist consider being a more successful dentist in Germany?

Mustafa Montgomery said...

The Germans took our inbred villagers. They didn't have to. Now, they should deal with them humanely.
They took our rustics, milked them for profits, and pretty much left them on their own, where national pride mixed with rustic stupidity has created a somewhat dangerous underclass (nothing at all like blacks in America, btw). Let's not slander an entire nation now on the basis of simpleton migrant workers.

Btw, average IQ stats for Turkey hide more than they reveal. Check out the results the past few years for the International Math Olympiad http://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx -- Turkey's consistently in the top 10 and we've finished ahead of Germany two years in a row. Can anyone imagine Mexico performing that well, despite having the same average IQ?

Svigor said...

Who cares about their IQs? The issue is racial and cultural, not economic. All this talk about IQs and "HBD" is simply a place where cowards go to avoid directly confronting the forces committing genocide against them. If IQ or economic performance is the test then you've already conceded that someone else has as legitimate a claim to your territory as you do. Imagine if someone showed up on your doorstep waving his excellent test scores and informing you that he now has the right to move into your house, have instant say in all household decisions, and that he will eventually own your house, and at that time will kick your children to the curb. The proper response is not to argue about his qualifications, it's to put the dog on him.

What that guy said. I might quibble about suitable replacements for "dog," but otherwise it's just right.

Anonymous said...

Reply to anon (#25):

How could West Germany have "imported North Koreans"? What makes you think their dictator would have let them leave?

The BEST course of action for Germany would have been to have had NO foreign labour force. It might have taken another decade or even two, to have cleared away the rubble and rebuilt - but at least those new buildings would have been inhabited by Germans. The "guest worker" program was an extremely foolish and short-sighted idea. The "guests" didn't have the graciousness to go home.

Anonymous said...

I'd also add that relative to Turks, Germans are workaholic grind outs.

Anonymous said...

A lot of Turks in Germany are Kurds. I don't know much about Kurds, but maybe someone here can elaborate on the differences between Kurds and Turks.

Anonymous said...

Germans as hardworking, well-organized, punctual, ambitious, persevering.

Sound like a bunch of fascists to me.

Anonymous said...

How much better off would Germany be right now if instead of importing Turkish workers it had imported North Korean workers instead?

Germany today would be almost 100% a combination of "white" and northeast asian. Germany would have by far the highest IQ in Europe

Average IQ in Germany would be rising each year instead of falling.

Imagine what could have been.


Imagine how great Germany would be today had the USA not intervened in World War 1 and helped kick off the chain of events that led to WW2 and beyond. There would have been no need to import Turks or anyone else.

fasdfasdfasdf said...

"In what way would a future Germany of Ashkenazi-descendants rather than Turk-descendants NOT be 'Germany abolishing itself', one wonders."

But it will be a Germany filled with Mahlers, Einsteins, Heines, Kafkas, etc.

SFG said...

"But wouldn't a successful Turkish dentist consider being a more successful dentist in Germany?"

Hardly. He doesn't speak the language, will be looked on as a low-class foreigner, and will have difficulty getting the best jobs. The blue-collar types have more incentive to move.

"Or maybe he just made that Jewish remark to score easy PC points in a conversation straying into non-PC territory. Who knows."

Probably. Maybe he figured it was a nice way to convince people he wasn't a Nazi.

Anyway, if I were the Germans, I wouldn't want more Jews around. Sure some of them were trying to play nice and act German before (Reform Judaism was basically an attempt to assimilate), but NOW they've got the world's biggest chip on their shoulders. You've got a bunch of organized, aggressive, brainy people who actually know history, and oh, by the way, your grandparents killed their grandparents. Yeah, this is going to go well.

I did find it comical that Russian Jews were trying to get into Germany instead of Israel for a while. Times change.

Anonymous said...

There is NOTHING more PERMANENT then "temporary labour".

--------

There is NOTHING more PERMANENT ....THAN... poor spelling.

Ray Sawhill said...

FWIW, during our week in Istanbul, my wife and I had less trouble with dogs (which run freely in the city) than we do in a typical week in NYC, where there are strictly enforced leash and pooper-scooper laws. Where NYC dogs bark a lot, often act neurotic, and leave dogshit on the sidewalk (even when it's cleaned up), the Istanbul dogs generally loll around and act sweet. I don't remember hearing a single bark, and I don't remember seeing a single pile of dogshit. Where they crap I have no idea. But people generally treat the dogs nicely, and the dogs generally live and let live.

Same with cats, by the way. Istanbul's full of stray cats, and they're a fun feature of the city.

It all left my wife and me thinking that it's a very nice way to co-exist with dogs and cats.

Anonymous said...

Reply to eh:

WHY does that make them "hypocrites"?

Anonymous said...

"But wouldn't a successful Turkish dentist consider being a more successful dentist in Germany?"

If you are an elite in Turkey, status is more important than money. And yes, being a dentist is considered elite in Turkey. Turkey also has a lower living standard, so you'd be able to get more bang for your buck even if the Germans paid you more. Also, try to think of the situation through the eyes of a professional Turk. Would you rather learn a new language, uproot your immediate family, junk your professional contacts, leave your distant relatives behind and move to Germany for a higher paying job while accepting low class Turks and other assorted Muslims as your patients or would you rather stay in Istanbul, live comfortably and take secular businessmen and bankers as your patients? I know what I would pick. And think about it, if moving to Germany was such a great deal for all Turks, then we'd be seeing more educated Turks immigrating there, but that's not the case.

Anonymous said...

Anon said:
"It is a shame that Sarrazin felt pressured into censoring statements about race and IQ from recent editions of his book."

Did he seriously edit recent editions of his book? That's a shame. I'll be in Germany soon and business and was planning on picking up a copy. How badly did he gut his book?

Anonymous said...

"A lot of Turks in Germany are Kurds. I don't know much about Kurds, but maybe someone here can elaborate on the differences between Kurds and Turks."

Kurds are dumber and more religious. What this means is that the Kurds would commit more crime than Turks and you'd be more likely to find Kurds involved in terrorist plots. Mehmet Ali Agca was Kurdish.

Starker said...

"Who cares about their IQs? The issue is racial and cultural, not economic."

Who says the two sets of issues are mutually exclusive? I care about their IQs because I have to deal with these people. I don't know where you hang out, but where I am government agencies and hospitals are staffed at the first-contact level by the more domesticatable of the female NAMs.

I called to make an appointment with an internist in early October; usually it would take a week. In this case it took 10 weeks. The lady (female Latina) said "If you wanted to see him now, you should have called in August." What are we talking about -- theater tickets? This genius makes doctor's appointments all day long and it hasn't occurred to her that some of the calls are generated by emerging symptoms. She is surrounded by all the trappings of a hospital and yet she is oblivious to the fact that some people might want to see a doctor because they are sick. I didn't explain it to her, it would have just thrown her off her game.

That my friends is STUPIDITY. Now we have a shitload of people like that and we've got to put them somewhere. I have friends, two of them are JEWS, who won't talk to anyone on government, insurance or medical calls unless they hear the reassuring sounds of an American white accent. If they don't, they hang up and start all over again, and believe me these dudes know that time is money. Some of us care about IQs.

Captain Jack Aubrey said...

More or less off-topic, but the Republican leadership has revealed that it pretty much doesn't care whether or not the DREAM Act amnesty for 2.1 million illegals passes or not...so long as rich people don't have their taxes increased.

See here: "Potentially offering hope to the legislation’s advocates, Don Stewart, a spokesman for Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, said Republicans aren’t making it their top priority to kill the bill. 'I don’t have a whip count on it…Our priority is making sure no one gets a tax hike and funding the government while reducing spending,' Stewart said."

It's been rumored that McConnell and Boehner would be willing to exchange a vote for increasing the debt ceiling in exchange for extending the tax cuts for the rich.

Introducing the new GOP - same as the old one. Open borders immigration policies? Check. Higher government spending? Check. They'll give away everything just to extend the tax cuts for the rich.

Anonymous said...

"It might have taken another decade or even two, to have cleared away the rubble and rebuilt"

The Germans rebuilt Germany on their own. The guest worker program started in the 60ies when the German economy was already booming and labor shortages prevented export oriented companies from expanding production. Sarrazin claims that this was a mistake and that they should have expanded by opening up factories in their target markets and improve industrial automation, which they eventually did anyway, so that by the early 70ies, there was no need for unskilled workers in these industries anymore. Immigration has been a losing deal for Germany ever since in economic terms.

But it wasn't actually business that initially pushed for the guest worker program. It was rather the sending countries themselves that asked Germany to take their unemployed masses of their hands to prevent political uprisings and to reduce the trade balances through remittances.

The US government lobbied Germany on the behalf of Italy and especially Turkey on this issue in order to help stabilize their NATO allies. (Italy used to have the largest and most threatening Communist Party of any western nation)

These political motivations behind the guest worker program have only recently been uncovered by the historian Heike Knorz. The economic argument was mostly a front.

http://www.unzensuriert.at/002551-t-rkische-gastarbeiter-kamen-auf-druck-der-usa

-
Contrarian

Steve Sailer said...

Ray,

Same thing I saw in Bodrum: a lot of very, very mellow dogs lolling about. Somebody suggested they all have internal parasites that sap their energy. But I'm wondering whether it's selection for non-yappy dogs.

Kylie said...

"Same thing I saw in Bodrum: a lot of very, very mellow dogs lolling about. Somebody suggested they all have internal parasites that sap their energy. But I'm wondering whether it's selection for non-yappy dogs."

Our bulldog had whipworms when we got her but was otherwise young and healthy. She didn't look sick, was agreeable but very quiet, acted years older than she was. She perked up considerably once we treated her for worms. Over a year later, she acts much younger and friskier now than she did when we got her. So yeah, I'd guess that internal parasites are part of what make Turkish dogs so mellow.

That and not having to live in NYC.

Black Sea said...

"But wouldn't a successful Turkish dentist consider being a more successful dentist in Germany?"

There is a Turkish middle or professional class that moves quite easily between the two countries. From the waning days of the Ottomans, Turkey has had strong economic and educational ties to Germany. Not all Turks in Germany originate from the Anatolian peasantry. There is an trilingual educated class (Turkish, German, and English). I happen to know and work with several such Turks.

Your hypothetical Turkish dentist might well have both the means and motivation to go to Germany, though admittedly, he is not the norm among Turks in Germany.

LemmusLemmus said...

"But wouldn't a successful Turkish dentist consider being a more successful dentist in Germany?"

What people above said, plus: They wouldn't have let him in. The guest workers were let in to fill factory jobs; there was no shortage of dentists. Chances are a Turkish license wouldn't even be accepted; do you figure Mesut the Dentist fancies going to university all over again?

eh said...

WHY does that make them "hypocrites"?

The comment was:

For Germans born after 1975: The higher their social class, the more likely they are to embrace Polite ("published") Opinion of the "post-national, society-is-to-blame kind" variety.

There's little doubt that Germans of a 'higher social class' are among those who don't want to live near Turks.

I would say that's a NIMBY-like kind of hypocrisy. Or so it seems to me.

Anyway, I did say "maybe".

Corrected link for Hartz IV.

ATBOTL said...

"Nowhere in Europe is the gap between public opinion and published opinion as wide as in Germany."

I don't agree that this is the case. The UK seems to fit this shoe better.

At least the elite in Germany acknowledge that the German people exist.

Abe Fauxman said...

Herr Sarrazin is such a rabid racist!

Most Turks have quietly assimilated in German society, with only minor exceptions, as have Somalis in our colony.

SFG said...

"I called to make an appointment with an internist in early October; usually it would take a week. In this case it took 10 weeks. The lady (female Latina) said "If you wanted to see him now, you should have called in August." What are we talking about -- theater tickets? This genius makes doctor's appointments all day long and it hasn't occurred to her that some of the calls are generated by emerging symptoms. She is surrounded by all the trappings of a hospital and yet she is oblivious to the fact that some people might want to see a doctor because they are sick. I didn't explain it to her, it would have just thrown her off her game.

That my friends is STUPIDITY. Now we have a shitload of people like that and we've got to put them somewhere. "

Not necessarily. I'm not saying these people have three-digit IQs--they probably don't--but some of it may be lack of care or motivation rather thank frank stupidity.

It is true, though. In parts of the country where the service portion of the working class is white, you get much better service.

Severn said...

How much better off would Germany be right now if instead of importing Turkish workers it had imported North Korean workers instead?

Germany today would be almost 100% a combination of "white" and northeast asian. Germany would have by far the highest IQ in Europe





How's that high IQ working out for North Korea?

Svigor said...

How much better off would Germany be right now if instead of importing Turkish workers it had imported North Korean workers instead?

Germany today would be almost 100% a combination of "white" and northeast asian. Germany would have by far the highest IQ in Europe

Average IQ in Germany would be rising each year instead of falling.

Imagine what could have been.


Troll-bait, obviously, but there's a kernel of truth in there. I mean, consider how much more prosperous Germany would be today if, instead of importing Turkish workers, all the Germans had slit their own throats after mailing millions of one-way airline tickets to China?

I keep telling Jews this; well, a modification of this. If Israelis would just turn the running of Israel over to the smartest Chinese, Israel would be Hong Kong writ not-quite-as-small. If they would turn the country over to the smartest Chinese and then conveniently disappear overnight, Israel would be Heaven on Earth.

But it will be a Germany filled with Mahlers, Einsteins, Heines, Kafkas, etc.

Like Israel? There's a loooot of room for improvement there IMO. The number of Chinese geniuses dwarfs the number of Jewish geniuses. I think if Israel got over her racism, she could do a lot better. Personally, I don't know what they're thinking. It's all so obvious!

I think what we're seeing is some level of fatigue towards self-hate over WWII. Also, a realization that letting the country turn Turkish Muslim is not a good way to atone for the sins of past generations.

I dunno. I think what we're seeing is HBD; the behavioral genetics of the Germans expressing themselves. If they were really self-hating, they could've opened their borders a long time ago. I don't doubt they lacked for suggestions or encouragement in that direction. There seems to be something quite "racist" and "fascist" at the core of the inherent German psyche.

Hardly. He doesn't speak the language, will be looked on as a low-class foreigner, and will have difficulty getting the best jobs. The blue-collar types have more incentive to move.

He wouldn't need a "job," he could have his own practice.

My point was simply to show that Lemmus' logic was not self-explanatory, ceteris paribus. It simply does not follow that the lower rungs of society are the most likely to emigrate. It depends on circumstances on the ground in either country, which I think is borne out by the responses to my point.

Some of us care about IQs.

Indeed. Some of us prefer that, if attempts on the lives of our own group are going to be made, they be bumbling ones; i.e., low-IQ.

Anonymous said...

Traditionally Germany got its grunt labor from Poland, but of course 1939-45 put an end to that.
In fact in the aftermath of WW1, there was a serious attempt to form a Germany-Poland unified state, and this was put to a referendum, which failed, due largely to German racism.
If such a unified state had ever emerged (the idea was that Polish agriculture and labor would compliment German industry), I would little doubt that it would have been invincible and have dominated the rest of the 20th century.

asdfasdfasdfa said...

"Germany, after decades of dealing with large arrivals of refugees and family reunification, has now pretty much stopped immigration effectively."

Maybe this is true of legal immigration, but how does any EU state block entry of foreigners when national borders have eroded away--unless of course it's an island nation like Iceland?


The worst thing about EU is not the Euro but open borders. If an illegal enters into Greece or Spain, he can then easily migrate throughout the rest of Europe.
And nations like Greece and Spain prefer to have their illegals depart to some other part of Europe. They sweep the problem of illegal immigrants under the rugs of other European nations.

Anonymous said...

FWIW, Dr. Mehmet Oz is a Turk and obviously very smart. Whether you take his pop medical advice seriously is another story, but you cannot deny that the man is intelligent and a competent doctor.

Interestingly enough, his father was also a doctor and immigrated to America with very little knowledge of English. He describes his father as coming from the Koran belt in Turkey. His father received his education in the big city (Istanbul, I think). Mehmet also describes his mother coming from a secular family. His father was essentially the smart "farm boy" who married into the elite. Any Turk who describes himself as secular is no bumpkin. And chances are his mother's side of the family was either well-off or well-connected.

Dr. Oz has had so much success in America, become a millionaire celebrity doctor and he wouldn't have been able to accomplish the same in Turkey. But Oz's success is very rare and even if you were an intelligent doctor practicing in Turkey it still would not be worth your while to pack up and move your practice to the West. Dr. Oz was really lucky because he was able to make the right contacts to promote himself. Since he was born in America, handsome, and heavily Americanized, he became marketable. An even more brilliant Turkish doctor would not be able to do the same in America if he looked more stereotypically Turkish and retained his accent.

Severn said...

consider how much more prosperous Germany would be today if, instead of importing Turkish workers, all the Germans had slit their own throats after mailing millions of one-way airline tickets to China?


In all probability such a Germany would be exactly as prosperous as China is. Which is to say, far less prosperous than the Germany populated with Germans.

Anonymous said...

I would like to ask that anonymous poster if they have any sources to support the claim about an union between Germany and Poland and a referendum on the matter? I know of no such matter.

Anonymous said...

I worked as a gastarbeiter for a few weeks back in the 1980s - with some Italians, two French-speaking Africans, but mostly Turks and Kurds, under the supervision of a cheerfully pro-Hitler Bavarian. The Turks and Kurds (I couldn't really distinguish them) struck me as nice fellows, quiet and unassuming for the most part.

A Canadian girl who worked with us stupidly kissed one of the Turks on a dare, and a day or so later one of them approached me and asked if I would sell her services to the rest of the crew. He was very polite about it and stressed that they didn't expect to have sex with her, just to fool around a bit, maybe get her shirt off. I explained that I wasn't actually her boyfriend, so I couldn't commit her, but privately I thought: There is a cultural gap here.

Jack Ketch said...

Most Turks in London seem to run small businesses like cafes and dry-cleaners.

I find them to be generally quite friendly. Most of the Turks live in north London, quite often in areas with large Caribbean populations.

Woe betide the young swaggerers of the Caribbean community who try to cause problems for a Turkish cafe. A mobile phone call will quickly summon a couple of dozen burly Turks to give the wrongdoers a stern talking-to.

Peter A said...

"If such a unified state had ever emerged (the idea was that Polish agriculture and labor would compliment German industry), I would little doubt that it would have been invincible and have dominated the rest of the 20th century."

Well, it emerged in 1939 - and wasn't invincible, needless to say.

David said...

>won't talk to anyone on government, insurance or medical calls unless they hear the reassuring sounds of an American white accent. If they don't, they hang up and start all over again<

Who doesn't do this?

>You've got a bunch of organized, aggressive, brainy people who actually know history, and oh, by the way, your grandparents killed their grandparents.<

And vice-versa. The attempted genocide of Germans directly after the war - massacres and deliberate starvation for which the Americans, particularly those in the OSS, have no little responsibility - is often ignored or blanked out entirely. You are right that the scenario you sketch would not work out well - for either side.

By the way, FWIW, when I see the word "Turkish," I can think of only four word-association completions: "bath," "whorehouse," "march," and "prison."

Anonymous said...

Even if if you include EU migrants, Germany is seeing negative immigration. Mostly of Turks. The elite in Germany, for whatever reason, have decided to use lots of rules, regulations, and bueracracy to keep out immigrants, especially Turks.

If the Republicans really don't block an amnesty, which they could with their House majority, there's going to be an uprising. Conservatives aren't goint to take it. Every year, it seems like someone tries to pull an amensty on us and gets walloped before anything happens. This year, hopefully the same thing is going to happen. Which I think is good.

We've got a lot of people in the Congress and Senate on our side - Jeff Sessions, Steve King, Lou Barletta, Rand Paul.

I just hope that some of you people that are complaining remembered to vote (conservative/Tea Party) in the previous Congressional election. If you didn't, you're apart of the problem.

By the way, who is good for 2012? Romney? Palin? Pawlenty? I'm thinking Romney, but I'd be open to Pawlenty. Palin seems unlectable. Gingrich and Huckabee, I don't agree with.

Anonymous said...

Well, Turks are somewhat East Asians, like Kazahks, although only a bit.

Anonymous said...

there was a serious attempt to form a Germany-Poland unified state, and this was put to a referendum, which failed, due largely to German racism.

Whereas Poles voted 100% for it?

I also believe there was some kind of vote in Austria, 1918 or '19, to unite with Germany. Nothing came of that. And it probably gets swept under the carpet because of 1936. Can't go upsetting the mainstream narrative.

Anonymous said...

I would hardly call Kazahks "east Asians". Central Asians maybe, but certainly not "east Asians". By the way, any more west of Turkey and you run into Europe.

msch said...

"Did he seriously edit recent editions of his book? That's a shame. I'll be in Germany soon and business and was planning on picking up a copy. How badly did he gut his book?"

Three sentences were changed:

1) In the postscript, where Sarrazin thanks editors, secretaries, etc, a person's name has been replaced by the name of her workgroup.

2) A sentence that began "there is
bound to be trouble with...," now reads: "in the years to come, there is bound to be trouble with...,"

3) A sentence about the ill effects of cousin-marriage on IQ has been replaced with a citation from the footnote that accompanied it, but still says the same thing, only in more convoluted language.

So, nothing earth-shattering, but it didn't keep parts of the media from runnigs headlines like: "Sarrazin retcants!"

Anonymous said...

Kazakhs look pretty similar to East Asians, especially Mongolians. Racially they also have more in common with the general population of China than the Cantonese. Culturally they're pretty different.

Looking at the East Asian population (Hmong, Cantonese, Kazakhs, Japanese, Koreans, Mongols), we can see that genetically similar populations may have come under very different types of selective pressures.

lesley said...

"Turkish," I can think of only four word-association completions: "bath," "whorehouse," "march," and "prison."

what? How about Turkish Taffy (very popular candy when I was growing up, and still available); Turkish Delight, another kind of candy of very ancient provenance; Turkish towels, and Turkey dinner.

Wandrin said...

"Much of the issue is upon whom should the burden of proof be placed."

Such a small and yet massive point.