June 10, 2010

Turkish-Israeli Foreign Relations Explained

Many have wondered why the Netanyahu government of Israel has chosen a course so irritating to Israel's longtime ally, Turkey. After all, it shouldn't be terribly hard to keep Middle Eastern Muslims from uniting over how much they all hate you when they already hate each other so much. (The Ottomans, for example, managed to hang on in control in that region for hundreds of years after they had declined into indolence.)

Here's a brief quote that caught my eye this week. It's over the top, but helpful in gaining perspective on the news. It's from The Yiddish Policemen's Union by Michael Chabon, a 2007 best-selling novel set in an alternate history in which European Jews found refuge in the 1940s not in Palestine, but in Alaska. The hero, a Sitka police detective named Meyer Landsman, decides to do something he's reluctant to do:
Just to spite himself, because spiting himself, spiting others, spiting the world is the pastime and only patrimony of Landsman and his people. 

55 comments:

Anonymous said...

Is this why Sandy Berger needed to destroy those documents? [Marc Grossman & Nuclear Espionage]
freerepublic.com

A WHISTLEBLOWER has made a series of extraordinary claims about how corrupt government officials allowed Pakistan and other states to steal nuclear weapons secrets.

Sibel Edmonds, a 37-year-old former Turkish language translator for the FBI, listened into hundreds of sensitive intercepted conversations while based at the agency's Washington field office.

She approached The Sunday Times last month after reading about an Al-Qaeda terrorist who had revealed his role in training some of the 9/11 hijackers while he was in Turkey.

Edmonds described how foreign intelligence agents had enlisted the support of US officials to acquire a network of moles in sensitive military and nuclear institutions.

Among the hours of covert tape recordings, she says she heard evidence that one well-known senior official in the US State Department was being paid by Turkish agents in Washington who were selling the information on to black market buyers, including Pakistan.

The name of the official - who has held a series of top government posts - is known to The Sunday Times. He strongly denies the claims.

However, Edmonds said: "He was aiding foreign operatives against US interests by passing them highly classified information, not only from the State Department but also from the Pentagon, in exchange for money, position and political objectives."

She claims that the FBI was also gathering evidence against senior Pentagon officials - including household names - who were aiding foreign agents...

Anonymous said...

The explanation is fairly simple. Relations with Israel were strong when kemalists (including the military) ran the show. They had a common enemy with the Israelis: radical Islam. Now that proto Islamists run the show in TR, sooner or later this relationship was headed to the rocks (that was sped up by this incident). We ran into a similar issue with the war in Iraq, and TR's non-support thereof (whereas in all likelihood many Kemalists would have supported us, like they did in Korea.) Now that the world realizes America is led by a man who doesn't believe America should lead, it's a countdown to chaos. The fact that Turks and Arabs (and now, Persians!), who have been enemies for centuries, have united against us is a colossal failure of diplomacy.

Anonymous said...

Many have wondered why the Netanyahu government of Israel has chosen a course so irritating to Israel's longtime ally, Turkey.

This is wrong.

Many have wondered why the Erdogan government of Turkey has chosen a course so irritating to Turkey's longtime ally, Israel.

There, fixed it.

Anonymous said...

I like your current Chabon kick, Steve. The guy's a good writer and an interesting thinker, even if his wife is a creepy narcissist.

Jim O said...

Michael Chabon week on iSteve continues!
Anyway, as the second "anonymous" implies, demographic changes in Turkey have made the termination of any Turkiish-Israeli alliance (such as it was) inevitable. Bibi's spitefulness is a minor factor, if a factor at all.

Anonymous said...

Ouch.

Simmons said...

Steve,

With the setup and reference to a novel I had never heard of, I was expecting something substantial.

That was just cold, man.

Anonymous said...

Is that 2nd anon Whiskey?

because spiting himself, spiting others, spiting the world is the pastime and only patrimony of Landsman and his people.

First Helen Thomas, now this Chabon charater piles on as well. These anti-semites are evrywhere! I trust he will get the same treatment as her.

Osman the Turk said...

The Iraq War changed everything. I was there. The "Kemalists" lost standing, and the semi-literates have been filling up the vacuum.

Other Anon said...

The flotilla incident was a consequence of Turkey's hostility toward Israel, not the cause of it. Chris Caldwell is one of the few pundits who gets this. The Islamist government of Turkey has cracked down on its secular military (which has relations with Israel's military), and with that done, it's looking to reassert itself as the regional Muslim hegemon. What better way to rally the other Mohamedens than stirring the pot with Israel?

Anonymous said...

Steve, you're a numbers man. Apportion the blame between the Israeli govt and the Turkish govt.
Thanks
Mark

Carney said...

Sailer, you used to be a fun and interesting read; now you're careening further and further into anti-Semitic kookery and vicious spite.

Reg C├Žsar said...

How much is Mr Chabon paying Mr Sailer to make all these posts quoting him? I'd make a pun, if I knew how to pronounce the name.

...whereas in all likelihood many Kemalists would have supported us, like they did in Korea. -- Kim Il Anonymous

Wow. I was unaware of the existence of a Korean Kemalist Kontingent. Formed to counter those Japanese jihadists of the 1970s?

Idiots vs. A-holes said...

I still can't get over the fact that the ship/flotilla was named after Rachel Corrie. Talk about provacative.

ai said...

Sometime your antisemitism gets better of you. Too often recently. Sad, really

Anonymous said...

The colossal failure of diplomacy that may lead to an Arab-Persian-Turkish alliance against America is America acting like Israel's puppy, unfortunately somehow the american establishment doesn't seem to understand it.

Anonymous said...

Geert Wilders' party appears to have done well in the dutch vote - interesting also that he spent some formative years in israel

Anonymous said...

Time to dust off this old classic. Quite relevant given it's aquatic setting:


The scorpion wants to cross a river, and asks the frog to help him across. The frog replies: "I can't trust you, you're a scorpion!" The scorpion replies, "Sure you can!" and hops on the frog's back. Half way across, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog asks "Why did you do that? Now we're both gonna die." The scorpion replies: "Hey, I can't help it. I'm a scorpion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog

Anonymous said...

"good at complaining"

http://twitter.com/awkwordcity/status/14921843545

josh said...

Out of curiosity, what would you have done were you Netanyahu?

Also, what would you have done if you were Ian Smith?

It seems like sometimes the world doesn't give you a lot of options. I just wish the US (Government and journalist alike) would just stay out of it.

robert said...

For details of a much-touted (though eventually abandoned) plan to set up Jewish settlements in Western Australia and Tasmania during the 1930s and 1940s, see here:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ark/stories/2006/1534158.htm

couchscientist said...

Off topic, but did you see this blog from the NY Times? Basically calling for everyone to stop procreating so that we don't inflict the tragedy of living on children. This nut job thinks that by his thoughtful refraining from procreation the future will be better because of one less strain on the planet and because one less soul will have to endure life. What he does not address is that leaving the procreating to others will probably create a worse world than one in which the intelligent procreate. I suppose this is what a lack of religion does to a person, he cannot fathom the value of suffering.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/should-this-be-the-last-generation/

Anonymous said...

Don't be an ass. The AKP needs to ram through some constitutional amendments that would allow women to wear headscarves in universities, and other anti-secular policies. The secular establishment is allied with Israel -- picking a fight with Israel weakens the Kemalists, and makers it easier for the AKP to dominate the country.

On the other hand, the CHP just picked an Alevi leader with (shhh) Kurdish heritiage -- the smartest think these Turkish "blue staters" could do. they may be able to pick up votes in the "red-state" Anatolian heartland.

Not everything is about the Jews.

Black Death said...

From the Jerusalem Post (June 7, 2010):

If Israel, from the European perspective, stumbled badly with the Ramat Shlomo incident, Turkey - again from a European point of view - raised a few eyebrows in that same month when Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, prior to receiving German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Ankara, revitalized the proposal for the establishment of Turkish- language schools in Germany. Erdogan also implied that he considered himself the prime minister of Turks living in Germany, which elicited the following response from Merkel: "If there are worries or hardships for people with Turkish roots living here - I am their chancellor, too."

Anonymous said...

'Now that the world realizes America is led by a man who doesn't believe America should lead, it's a countdown to chaos.'

I hope you're wrong

Whiskey said...

Anonymous is correct, and Mark Steyn noted that "who lost Turkey" is answered by the urban, coastal, liberal Turks, who had few children, while the Islamist, poor, rural, illiterate Anatolian Turks had many.

This is why Turkey is Islamist -- they have the numbers.

Steyn points out further, that History does not run one way. That in 1959, you could see graduating class pictures of Arab women in the University of Cairo, in modern Western dress, now they are in chadors, looking like tents.

Israel is confronting its own miniature version of this, with its growing Orthodox population who don't serve in the Army, pay taxes, or work much in wealth-creating jobs. Or even know anything useful (science, math, engineering).

Obama has signed on to an "International Investigation" rejecting in his own words "a Kosher investigation" of Israel by its own judiciary. Reason cited: not wanting to offend Muslims or "the international community" -- despite no such investigation on offing for the sinking of the Cheosam by North Korea, 43 dead.

I hope the Israelis do go ahead with the reverse flotilla to aid the Kurds, providing humanitarian aid, and offering support for their independence, and a follow up for the Turkish occupation (illegal) of Cyprus and the divided city of Nicosia.

No one cares about Turkey's treatment of Kurds, or Greek Cypriots, or illegal occupations, and the like. Only when Jews are involved does the world "care" (i.e. display its hatred, reflexively, for Jews).

OneSTDV said...

Post on Muslims:

Muslims, Blacks, and Pat Buchanan

ProudWhiteMan said...

I fail to see how Israel has chosen a course irritating to turkey- what I see is the inverse. How would Turkey react to an Israeli supply mission to Kurdistan?
What other country gives up land won in war to people who wish to destroy it? Remember "Land for Peace"? As you like to say, "How's that working out for you?" As soon as the Israeli's pulled out of Gaza, the Arabs used it as a launching pad for rocket attacks. What country on earth would put up with that? Even the cretinous baboons of the Obama administration would be forced to do something if the Mexicans were lobbing missiles at San Diego from Tijuana.....

Ash said...

Yeah, this is a very weak post. Exactly what has changed in Israeli policy?

Barack Mugabe said...

Very funny, Steve!
Maybe that's why they push mass 3rd world immigration so hard. And gay marriage, anti-white discrimination, denial of IQ, etc.

Anonymous said...

Steve's writings always seem to be on point except when it comes to Israel. And I'm not exactly a big Israel booster.

Any fool can see that it is the Turks doing the antagonizing rather than the other way around, and it's quite obvious why they are doing it.

I guess everybody has a blind spot. I think Steve looks up to Buchanan too much and that has led him to pickup some of Pat's more specious ideas.

Bibi's mad auntie said...

Israel, as moral leader of the world, ought to blow up these ships before they leave their harbors, even if the harbor is at Manhattan. International waters, hell. All who dislike Israel must be met with violent force no matter where they are located. Only this policy can defeat fascism and imperialism.

David Davenport said...

Wikipedia sez:

Cold War Era

The Turkish Army participated in the Korean War as a member state of the United Nations, suffering 731 deaths in combat out of the 5000 soldiers of the Turkish Brigade there, which fought at Kunu-ri and Kumyangjang-ni, and is credited with saving the U.S. 2nd Infantry Division from encirclement[6]....


Dunno if the Turkish Brigade was solely responsible for saving the
2nd Div.

Background to Turkey's participation in the Korean War: The USA wanted Turkey in NATO back in the 1940's because of Turkey's Black Sea location, in spite of doubts about Turkey's Western-ness

Turkey at that time wanted to side with the West against the USSR.

Greece more or less got into NATO as a counterbalance to the Turks.

... Moving up to 2003, recall that Turkey refused to let the US
4th Infantry Div. invade Iraq via Turkey.

Anonymous said...

Yuck, the Yiddish Policemen's Union? Really, Steve? I barely made it 50 pages before I had to put it down.

The book wallows in Jewish self-pity, reeks of it. It's ludicrous when you contrast it with their astonishing, commendable success in the real world. I'd rather read a sob story from Gisele Bundschen on how hard her life is. No thanks.

Also (I skipped to the end), Palestine figures prominently in the plot, and yet there is not a SINGLE Arab or Palestinian voice in the entire book. It's like they have been completely erased from consciousness. Out of sight, out of mind.

Anonymous said...

"I fail to see how Israel has chosen a course irritating to turkey- what I see is the inverse. How would Turkey react to an Israeli supply mission to Kurdistan?"

As an example of the deliberate obtuseness of the comments here, this is quite good.

Turkey would welcome humanitarian aid for its Kurdish citizens - and they are full citizens - with open arms.

Barack Mugabe said...

"Any fool can see that it is the Turks doing the antagonizing"
Right - but anyone who is not a fool won't take the ludicrous pro-Israel propaganda that we get in the US at face value. Try reading some press from any country outside the US and you will be a fool no longer. Even the Israeli press acknowledges that the flotilla raid was at the least bad PR. The UK has its own strong Israel lobby, but no serious person over there pretends that Turkey was the aggressor. Check out the debate on this issue in Parliament if you don't believe me:
Flotilla Debate

David Davenport said...

As part of the IX Corps' general northward advance, the Turks were ordered on November 21 [1950] to move north with the [US] 25th Division. ...

On November 26, the Chinese Communist Forces (CCF) launched strong counterattacks against the U.S. I Corps and IX Corps. The main Chinese force moved down the central mountain ranges against the ROK II Corps at Tokchon. The South Koreans could not withstand the attack and their defenses collapsed.
...

When he received intelligence that air observers had seen hundreds of Chinese moving toward Tokchon, Maj. Gen. Laurence Kaiser, commanding the U.S. 2nd Division, remarked, "That's where they are going to hit." The Chinese counteroffensive actually struck all along the front. Two platoons of the Turkish Brigade assigned reconnaissance duty were now given rear-guard duty. The Chinese followed the brigade closely. The reconnaissance unit engaged the oncoming Chinese at the Karil L'yong Pass, was unable to break contact. Only a few men survived.

The Turks had achieved one objective--they had tied down the enemy. The Chinese suffered heavy casualties trying repeatedly to take the Turkish position, and all their attacks were repelled. Finally, Yazici, understanding that the brigade was being encircled by the numerically superior Chinese, ordered withdrawal.

The Turks were isolated in the subzero temperatures, their orders not fully understood. And during the night, the Chinese kept up a steady barrage of sudden noises using drums, bugles, whistles, flutes, shepherds' pipes and cymbals, along with the shouting, laughing and chattering of human voices.

The offensive had changed and now became a rout of the U.N. forces. The engulfing enemy constantly changed tactics and directions.. Communications resumed with the Turkish Brigade. Some orders were understood, but most were not. The brigade was ordered to merge with the U.S. 38th Regiment, cover the 38th's flank and secure a retreat route westward. In the confusion of the retreat and the garbled, misdirected and delayed messages, that crucial directive was two hours late in delivery. The column got turned about in the mass confusion and congestion of the road.

Once again, as the Turks approached Wawon, they encountered heavy enemy fire. The CCF had arrived before the Turks were able to reassemble and assume defensive positions. The Chinese ripped into the ragged column and the soldiers were ordered to turn about once again. The Turkish 9th Company took the brunt of the attack as it covered for the retreating main body. The 10th Company of the brigade's 3rd Battalion received orders to form the brigade's general outpost line.

Major Lutfu Bilgin, commander of the 3rd Battalion, sent his 9th Company to defend the 10th and 11th companies' flank. The Chinese eased off on the 10th but continued to besiege the 9th and the 11th. Midmorning on November 28, the Chinese broke through and attacked the 9th's position in force. The company was overrun, and Major Bilgin and many of his men were killed.

Enemy reinforcements tried to encircle the entire brigade. General Yazici, however, assessed the situation and took steps to protect his flank and avoid encirclement. The CCF poured forward, and the Turks were caught in the trap that the Chinese were laying. Suddenly, the Chinese broke off after encountering strong resistance of the 3rd Battalion.

During the withdrawal, the Chinese had attacked the Turks with overwhelming force and the brigade took such high casualties that by November 30 it was destroyed as a battleworthy unit. The only support the Turks received from IX Corps was a tank platoon and truck transportation. That was added to the brigade's artillery and enabled some of the brigade to survive ...

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/TurkishBrigade.htm

Anonymous said...

Osman the Turk said...

The Iraq War changed everything. I was there. The "Kemalists" lost standing, and the semi-literates have been filling up the vacuum.

The real Turks lost standing, and the vacuum-headed semi-literate Kurds and Arabs filled up the vacuum.

Steve Sailer said...

Re: Turks in Korea

Jerry Pournelle says Turkish troops saved his life during the long, bloody retreat from North Korea.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Steyn on demography. The fact that the Western-leaning Kemalists have lost Istanbul is a recapitaliation of the original fall of Constantinople -- first as tragedy, now as farce. Back then demography and interesingly enough, multiculturalism (there were mosques inside the walls when it fell) set the stage for conquest ( is not to take away from the courage and skill of Turkush arms.)
The fall of Constantinople isn't taught in schools (would disrupt the narrative by showing Westerners as slaves), amd we are on the same path to demographic ruin followed by conquest from within (Anatolia was once upon a time the "Byzantine" heartland. Not when C. fell). There is no need to lose Manzikert when, as census results show, we won't put up a fight.

Steve Sailer said...

Re: "The Yiddish Policemen's Union:"

"The book wallows in Jewish self-pity, reeks of it. It's ludicrous when you contrast it with their astonishing, commendable success in the real world. I'd rather read a sob story from Gisele Bundschen on how hard her life is."

Yup.

But it's quite good, so if you want to read an example of Jewish self-pity, it's a good choice.

vityokr said...

You should work harder on keeping your antisemitism in check.
Mars an otherwise excellent blog.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Steyn on demography. The fact that the Western-leaning Kemalists have lost Istanbul is a recapitaliation of the original fall of Constantinople

It's also a recapitulation of the "fall" of Iran and Lebanon in the 1970s.

ProudWhiteMan said...

Reply to this post commenting on my earlier post:

Anonymous said...

"I fail to see how Israel has chosen a course irritating to turkey- what I see is the inverse. How would Turkey react to an Israeli supply mission to Kurdistan?"

As an example of the deliberate obtuseness of the comments here, this is quite good.

Turkey would welcome humanitarian aid for its Kurdish citizens - and they are full citizens - with open arms.

6/11/2010

Israel has ALWAYS allowed humanitarian aid to the occupied territories and Gaza. The other boats in the flotilla were searched and allowed to proceed to port to be unloaded. The Arabs (Hamas) has refused to accept the goods ( I guess they've been "contaminated" by having been touched by Jews or something).

Controlling Borders is a central theme of this blog. Should this not apply when Israel is involved?

Criticism of Israel and Jews, like criticism of any and all ethnic groups and countries, is fine, if reasoned an accurate. But holding Jews and Israelis to a different standard than the rest of the world is antisemitic. Where is even the call for an international boycott of North Korea over the recent sinking of a South Korean ship? Or a call for a boycott over the 1974, 36 year old invasion, occupation, and ethnic cleansing of Cypress?

And BTW- Turkey not only does not accept blame for the Armenian Holocaust, it doesn't even recognize that a Holocaust occurred. Where is the U.N.'s outrage on that subject?

Can you say "Double Standard"?

Anonymous said...

Not entirely off topic: Steve, you should about Anastasia Michaeli.

Anonymous said...

Controlling Borders is a central theme of this blog. Should this not apply when Israel is involved?

Because controlling borders is usually something one does for oneself.

Israel has, perhaps rather too altruistically, taken on the task of controlling someone elses borders for them.

Anonymous said...

And BTW- Turkey not only does not accept blame for the Armenian Holocaust, it doesn't even recognize that a Holocaust occurred. Where is the U.N.'s outrage on that subject?

Thats odd because quite a few people seem to have got the idea that its Jews who are most antagonistic to the idea of the Armenian holocaust being acknowledged.

Can you say "Double Standard"?

So, in that case, the answer is yes!

There are also those who susbscribe to the idea that the Jews were actually the motivating force behind the Armenian holocaust. Ive no idea whether there is any substance in this claim. I merely report that the claim is made.

However if it were true then...

Can you say "Double Standard"?

The answer would be yes again!

Think about it though. The usual assumption is that the Jews downplay the Armenian holocaust as its supposed to detract from their own. But if this is true, the Jews were behind it all along. Well, there you are, a much more obvious motive for wanting a veil drawn over what happened to the Armenians.

Is that what you are trying to tell us?

Anonymous said...

A Turkish veteran of Korea pulled me aside in TR, recognizing I was an American, and insisted on buying me raki, which we toasted together a number of times in the noonday sun. I couldn't help but get the feeling I reminded him of the GI's he once fought alongside. He appeared far from prosperous, and the kindness and hospitality of the gesture will never leave me. Picturing him as a young man fighting off locust swarms of PLA... We need more allies like him and his ilk. We have the Brits and Ozzies in Afganistan, but with Obama sending back Churchll's bust... Well, what does he care? He doesn't view us/Them as HIS people. That would be the Kenyans.

none of the above said...

I assume the explanation tracks with your other post. There is no inner party of competent people making decisions. Turkish and Israeli politicians are making decisions that seem best to them for staying in power and not visibly wrecking their countries. This applies to the blockade of gaza, the gaza turkey shoot, the clusterfuck in Lebanon, etc.

ProudWhiteMan said...

Anonymous said:

Controlling Borders is a central theme of this blog. Should this not apply when Israel is involved?

Because controlling borders is usually something one does for oneself.

Israel has, perhaps rather too altruistically, taken on the task of controlling someone elses borders for them.

6/11/2010
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And BTW- Turkey not only does not accept blame for the Armenian Holocaust, it doesn't even recognize that a Holocaust occurred. Where is the U.N.'s outrage on that subject?

Thats odd because quite a few people seem to have got the idea that its Jews who are most antagonistic to the idea of the Armenian holocaust being acknowledged.

Can you say "Double Standard"?

So, in that case, the answer is yes!

There are also those who susbscribe to the idea that the Jews were actually the motivating force behind the Armenian holocaust. Ive no idea whether there is any substance in this claim. I merely report that the claim is made.

However if it were true then...

Can you say "Double Standard"?

The answer would be yes again!

Think about it though. The usual assumption is that the Jews downplay the Armenian holocaust as its supposed to detract from their own. But if this is true, the Jews were behind it all along. Well, there you are, a much more obvious motive for wanting a veil drawn over what happened to the Armenians.

Is that what you are trying to tell us?

6/11/2010

Are you serious? Even if your notion of Jews downplaying the Armenian Holocaust has any validity (an idea I've never run across- sources, please) what does that have to do with what I said?
Israel is merely enforcing a blockade- along with Egypt and the U.S., BTW- against an entity that has sworn to destroy them. What about this do you not understand?

Your ramblings about Jews and the Armenian Holocaust make no sense to me at all, frankly. Even if true, what does that have to do with what I've said? How in the world can you not see the double standard?

It's rather like before 9/11- the U.S. was bitching about Israel's use of "targeted killings" by helicopter. After 9/11, all that criticism stopped. Why? Because the U.S, did exactly the same thing, for the same reasons. In fact, Obama has expanded the idea to include American citizens who are exercising their first amendment rights in ways he doesn't like. Personally, I agree with his actions- but the hypocrisy of the left on this matter is astounding. Can you say "Double Standard" about the U.S.'s prior condemnation of Israel on this point, at least?

Glaivester said...

I hope the Israelis do go ahead with the reverse flotilla to aid the Kurds, providing humanitarian aid, and offering support for their independence, and a follow up for the Turkish occupation (illegal) of Cyprus and the divided city of Nicosia.

The one problem with an Israeli flotilla is, what if the Turks let it through? This could backfire if the Turks don't react according to plan. Of course, the other ideas have some merit and an Israeli aid flotilla might have some merit in conjunction with the other ideas.

However, the Israeli government might want to steer clear and to let other entities within Israel do this (perhaps with covert assistance from the government); with plausible deniability they can still leave an opening for Turkey to reconcile with them. Official government condemnaiton would sour relations further, and Isreal would be wise to avoid it unless and until it becomes clear that no reapprochement is possible.

Anonymous said...

It's also a recapitulation of the "fall" of Iran and Lebanon in the 1970s.

Has anyone ever seen any estimates of total fertility rates for Lebanese Christians or Syrian Christians?

For instance, is the decline in Lebanese Christianity due to the Diaspora [emigration] or due to problems with the Maronite fertility rate?

Similarly, I keep hearing rumblings that Aramaic Christianity [in Syria] is in serious jeopardy of extinction.

The aggregate fertility numbers [Christian & Muslim] certainly do not look encouraging [and mental guesstimates of the least squares would lead me to believe that Christian fertility is in the toilet]:

Lebanon, CIA Factbook: 39% Christian, 59.7% Muslim
Lebanon, UN TFR estimate, 2000-2005: 2.32
Lebanon, UN TFR estimate, 2005-2010: 2.21
Lebanon, CIA TFR estimate, 2000: 2.08
Lebanon, CIA TFR estimate, 2009: 1.85

Syria, CIA Factbook: 10% Christian, 90% Muslim
Syria, UN TFR estimate, 2000-2005: 3.48
Syria, UN TFR estimate, 2005-2010: 3.08
Syria, CIA TFR estimate, 2000: 4.06
Syria, CIA TFR estimate, 2009: 3.12

Cyprus, CIA Factbook: 78% Greek Orthodox, 4% Maronite and Armenian Apostolic, 18% Muslim
Cyprus, UN TFR estimate, 2000-2005: 1.63
Cyprus, UN TFR estimate, 2005-2010: 1.61
Cyprus, CIA TFR estimate, 2000: 1.95
Cyprus, CIA TFR estimate, 2009: 1.45

ATBOTL said...

Actually, I think it's pretty clear that the decline in Israel-Turkey relations is due to Turkey's Islamist government doing more to help fellow Muslims in places like Palestine.

It's pretty rich to see the Israel firsters talking about the Armenian genocide now, when they were the ones who suppressed knowledge of it in America right up until Turkey turned on them.

W Baker said...

You left out the next sentence in that Chabon quote. (If he didn't actually say it, he should have!) It should have read, "Just to spite himself, because spiting himself, spiting others, spiting the world is the pastime and only patrimony of Landsman and his people. And if this spite is recognized by anyone outside the tribe, scream anti-Semitism or self-hate."

David said...

>an entity that has sworn to destroy them. What about this do you not understand?<

Oh, come on. If offensive Mexicans invaded an area outside your town (on the notion that this area belonged to them centuries ago), interned you in response to your attempts to eject them, stole the town, and shot at any child who raised a digit to them, wouldn't you sympathize with Geronimo's mindset a bit better? Nope. If it's Jews, that excuses anything, even murder, because they are the moral light of the world.

>Obama has expanded the idea [of targeted killings by helicopter] to include American citizens who are exercising their first amendment rights in ways he doesn't like. Personally, I agree with his actions<

And we're the Nazis.