December 29, 2009

China likes blondes

China correspondent Keith B. Richburg of the Washington Post comes up with a tough reporting assignment for himself: the influx of blonde fashion models into China:
China's Next Top Model may well be a blue-eyed Canadian blonde named Nicole.

Nicole Vos, 19, has been modeling in Canada for four years and was doing runway shows for Toronto Fashion Week when "my agency one day just told me that I'm going to China." Now just halfway through her three-month contract in Beijing, Vos has been photographed for catalogues, magazines and commercials.

"I love it here!" Vos gushed, shouting over the blaring house music at Touch, a club at the Westin Beijing Chaoyang hotel, the models' watering hole. "I definitely want to come back!"

Vos isn't alone. Western models, it seems, are everywhere these days in the People's Republic of China: on department store display ads, in catalogues for clothing brands, on billboards, in commercials and on the runways at fashion shows. They are blue-eyed American and Canadian blondes like Vos, sultry Eastern European brunettes and hunky male bodybuilders with Los Angeles tans and six-pack abs selling products from jeans to underwear.

A walk through the Guiyou department store in central Beijing is instructive. On the third and fourth floors, where designer brands from Shanghai, Shenzhen and Guangzhou are showcased, there's a display of a blonde modeling over-the-knee boots and red-and-black pumps for Hongke shoes. A pouty brunette advertises Baykal, a local brand of wool products. Even the mannequins have Western features.

It may seem incongruous that a country of 1.3 billion people -- roughly half of them female -- would have to import models. Or that designers and clothing brands would want to use blondes and redheads to market to a nation of black-haired consumers.

But the use of foreign models has been growing in China's fashion industry, as brands jostle to be known as "yangqi," or trendy -- literally "foreign-style" in Mandarin Chinese. The alternative, using only Chinese models, is interpreted as making the brand come off as "tuqi," or countrified. ...

Then there is the matter of the Chinese sense of what constitutes beauty in a globalized world. "The foreign models' faces are much more three-dimensional," Ou said. "They look nicer in pictures."

He added that he never hires black models. "Our clients don't ask for black models," he said. "It's an issue of Chinese people's aesthetic view."

Almost all of these kind of articles are written by women journalists, so they inevitably end with a ringing demand for social values to be revolutionized in order that, come the revolution, the reporterette will be considered hotter looking. In contrast, Richburg, a black guy, is objective and bemused by it all.

130 comments:

Concerned Netizen said...

Give the guy a break. He was stationed in Africa and wrote the truth about what a mess it was, for which he got his butt kicked by the bruthas back here. He even went as far as saying he was grateful his ancestors had to suffer the Middle Passage, which is the biggest no-no in blackness. Then he wrote a book about it and really brought down the PC police on his head.

http://www.unc.edu/~ottotwo/Roderreview.html

I wonder if the Chinese go for big tits as well? It's my impression that Chinese men don't.

Anonymous said...

Richburg wrote a book many years ago about how after visiting Africa, he considered himself fortunate that his ancestors had been brought to the US as slaves. He received, as one can imagine, a ton of grief from other blacks. His black female critics thought it a valid part of the uncle-tom critique to point out that he is married to a white woman.

Anthony Zhang said...

As a resident of Shanghai for many years, I can tell you that the opinions and assertions of just about any foreign journalist about China - just like the opinions and assertions of most expatriates who have resided in China for numerous years - are invariably errant and far off-base. This because they almost never pick up the language, and even when they do, rely on crude inductive reasoning to reach their conclusions.

I have many friends who work in the fashion industry, know quite a a few models who appear in magazines or do catwalk shows. There is no aesthetic bias towards blondes with blue eyes as far as I can discern - in private conversation, actually, even urban Chinese will tell you that they find caucasians disconcertingly strange in appearance, and their body odour abhorrent (one model I knew from Shanghai was always complaining about having to do fashion shows with Russian women because they were so 'chou', or smelly.) Chinese men in particular are of the opinion that caucasian women look too mannish to be attractive - to them they have long noses, protruding brows, and are covered in fine yet visible body hair. Caucasian men enjoy considerable success with a certain subset of Chinese women, but they are usually from the bottom end of the barrel, and considered sub-par by locals - the wealthy, gormless Westerner with the seedy, unattractive Chinese girl has lately become a standard comic trope.

The use of blondes in fashion magazines or advertising materials is simply to confer a cosmopolitan or international image upon a particular company or event, not because of aesthetic predilection. In Shanghai right now, there has also been an abrupt increase in the number of tanned and dark-haired models from Brazil, but our author hasn't written about the ascending preference in China for leggy mulattos.

Glossy said...

Societies in which most marriages are arranged by the parents of young people would be expected to produce less facial eye candy than societies in which it is common for young people to choose their own mates. Parents would care a lot about the status of their prospective in-laws. Horny young men and women would select for looks instead. I suspect that outside of the aristocracy arranged marriages weren't common in Europe in most historical periods.

Anonymous said...

East Asia in general loves blondes. If David Beckham had brown hair, you wouldn't see his face plastered all over Asia despite being a soccer celeb.

Larry, San Francisco said...

This reminds me of the time I met the VP of international sales for Mattel once (who was an Indian woman). In her entourage was the chief designer for Barbie. I asker her about Barbie in India and whether it was popular. She told me that they tried to introduce an Indian Barbie but it was a failure. Her distributors told her that what India wanted was a Blonde Barbie. When the blonde Barbie was introduced it was very succesful.

Anonymous said...

A little off-topic, but this find, by Kathryn Jean Lopez, might be of interest to the Roissy/Whiskey crowd:

Over lunch on the veranda at the Masters one year, Earl Woods said, "I’ve told Tiger that marriage is unnecessary in a mobile society like ours."

Anthony Zhang said...

Also of significance - the trendiest Chinese nightclubs - the ones with the greatest abundance of attractive young girls - usulaly have a 'No Foreigners' door policy.

A couple of years ago I took a tall, German friend of mine - a former model back in his home country - to what at the time was one of the most popular nightclubs in Shanghai amongst trendy young Chinese. The door girls absolutely refused to permit him entry. When we finally managed to get him in, because someone in our clique knew a member of management, according to my German friend, all the girls just looked through him like a pane of glass.

Anonymous said...

"...as brands jostle to be known as 'yangqi,' or trendy -- literally "foreign-style" in Mandarin Chinese...."

Sure that's not "yankee"?

greenrivervalleyman said...

I have a love-hate relationship with the Washington Post. I find it to be actually superior to The New York Times since it delivers all the relevant facts I need (I have pretty much never been surprised by some important detail in another news source for any story that was not a local exclusive) without resorting to burying inconvenient stories like the Times tends to do.

The problem with the Post is that it is schizophrenic. It wants to be both the most intellectually esteemed paper in the country as well as the paper that's relevant to its 40+% black home city, yet cannot bring itself to acknowledge that the 2 goals are logically incompatible. And so to assuage its conscience for running that 12-part piece on Afghanistan's opium drug trade that a certain segment of its "base" couldn't give 2 sh!ts about, it from time to time runs diversity puff pieces such as this. Last year they actually ran a near-identical piece on Indians' preference for fair skin, though my favorite one was from about 4 years ago where a reporter went to Iraq to cover race issues affecting Iraqis with noticeable African slave ancestry. Anyone with even a token grasp of Middle Eastern history could have told them this was a non-story, yet a reporter had to be sent half way around the world (all expenses paid!) to confirm, since the first rule of anti-racism is that denying the existence of racism is a form of racism itself.

josh said...

In a nation loaded with young Asian women,and they import blondes for models? White IT specialists are shaking their heads in wonder...

Svigor said...

He even went as far as saying he was grateful his ancestors had to suffer the Middle Passage, which is the biggest no-no in blackness.

Really? I figured it was so far into taboo-land that it wasn't even on anyone's radar. I'd like to see discussion of that between blacks. Maybe it'll involve guys with names like "honest."

Anonymous said...

FWIW, I seem to remember that, for a couple of years after I first came to NYC, just about all the mannequins in the windows of all the major department stores had East Asian features. There was probably some deep significance in this. Or maybe not.

Anonymous said...

Thais are ethnically Chinese, remember, who only migrated to Thailand from south China about a thousand years ago, which might explain why the Thai golfer Tiger Woods digs blondes.

Whiskey said...

When in China, walking around Tsinghua University and the district around the major shopping and hotel areas, I never saw any attractive Chinese women.

I am sure they exist, but there did not seem to me to be very many, so that you would see them casually the way you would say, along Melrose/Robertson, or Santa Monica, or around UCLA.

jody said...

i have no idea about this in china, but i do wonder why most japanese cartoons are drawn to show europeans. that's pretty weird when you think about it.

coming from the other perspective (i'm a european man), i definitely think east asian and especially southeast asian women can be super hot when all their features come together right. there are few women hotter than the best looking vietnamese and half vietnamese women. i'm thinking only czech women are their equal. my opinion only, of course. i notice all the physical differences between europeans and east asians that anthony zhang mentions.

Jim Bowery said...

Blonde haired blue eyed 19 year old girls are in demand world-wide?

That's just so weird!

Felix said...

A couple of years ago I took a tall, German friend of mine - a former model back in his home country - to what at the time was one of the most popular nightclubs in Shanghai amongst trendy young Chinese. The door girls absolutely refused to permit him entry. When we finally managed to get him in, because someone in our clique knew a member of management, according to my German friend, all the girls just looked through him like a pane of glass.

Haha! A very convenient story from our Chinese friend. It demonstrates that a)whites are not allowed to trendy Chinese clubs and b) it contains a handy deus ex machina that allows us to see that even if allowed entry, the Chinese girls are not interested in them at all.

The reality of course is the exact opposite of the above, but I can see why this version of the story might appeal to some Chinese males.

Middletown Girl said...

What is this, bamboo fever?

Anonymous said...

The door girls absolutely refused to permit him entry.




Door girls? Are they the Chinese version of bouncers?

Toadal said...

This development reminds me of a prediction I made a few years ago that by the middle of the 21st century a majority of the world's population would blue-eyed blonds.

Of course, those adventurous souls unwilling to follow biological tradition could choose violet, magenta, or salmon-eyed children or any of the available colors hereditary science companies offered. And eventually with the proper commercial incentives, 'design-your-child @home kits' would appear.

Why check in to a hospital when you can conceive\design your child at home?

Naturally, would-be parents wanting the privacy of design-your-child @home kits should follow some general guidelines:

* Check the expiration date on the package. Do not use a kit after its expiration date—the DNA in the kit may not work correctly after that date.
* Store the kit as directed. Most kits need to be stored in a refrigerator or cool place.
* Read the instructions that come with your kit carefully and thoroughly before design and conceiving your son or daughter. Look for any special preparations you need to take before performing the procedure, such as obtaining clean instruments and avoiding certain prescription or recreational drugs.
* Follow the directions exactly. Do all the steps, in order, without skipping any of them.
* If a step in the home needs to be timed, use a clock. Do not guess at the timing.
* Many home kits show color changes on a microfluidic chip. If you are color blind or have trouble seeing different colors, have someone else read the home results for you.
* Record the results of the conception so it can be registered with public health authorities.

ben tillman said...

Richburg wrote a book many years ago about how after visiting Africa, he considered himself fortunate that his ancestors had been brought to the US as slaves. He received, as one can imagine, a ton of grief from other blacks.

Why would one imagine that? Average African-American IQ is 85 not 45.

agnostic said...

Sounds more like a European thing than a blonde thing, with all the references to sultry brunettes.

Not too mysterious, though -- the Chinese are right up there with the English in the ugliest race contest.

Strange how localized that is, since Scottish or Irish girls aren't that bad, and ditto Japanese or Vietnamese girls.

Toadal said...

Anthony Zhang said..I have many friends who work in the fashion industry, know quite a few models who appear in magazines or do catwalk shows. There is no aesthetic bias towards blondes with blue eyes as far as I can discern ...

Well, Anthony, that's one man's opinion, however, we obviously require real data before reaching a conclusion.
Living in San Jose, California as I do, I observe that Chinese and Caucasian girls and boys can't seem to keep out of each others pants, and marriages here are quite common, but not as common as good hygiene and deodorant use. Additionally, the US has a tremendous pull on Chinese females attempting to avoid the 'One Child' policy who want babies.

Anyway, I propose we determine Chinese males tastes in women by determining the percentages of Japanese, Chinese, European, Indian and African girls viewed on pornographic sites in Taipei, Taiwan.

Anonymous said...

Over lunch on the veranda at the Masters one year, Earl Woods said, "I’ve told Tiger that marriage is unnecessary in a mobile society like ours."

Hmmm. I wonder Mrs. Earl Woods has to say about that!

Anonymous said...

So for the sake of the really jacked blond ex-military types out there, do you think the Chinese will be hiring their own Varangian Guard?

Dave R. said...

"...as brands jostle to be known as 'yangqi,' or trendy -- literally "foreign-style" in Mandarin Chinese...."

Sure that's not "yankee"?


Chinese uses roughly logosyllabic characters, not an alphabet, and there's some flexibility in assigning new written characters. I imagine the pun is deliberate, but still does literally mean "foreign-style."

Anonymous said...

Blond hair comes in a bottle.

Anonymous said...

Funny how no one responds to Zhang's funny and very true remarks.Most East Asians consider themselves superior both in looks and intelligence to Caucasians.

The attitude isn't going away and will get stronger as the US goes further and further into debt and 3rd Worldism.

Oh well, as long a millions Mexicans/Nigerians want to come here & we can sell the world Barbie Dolls we're still Number 1. USA! USA!

Joseph Dart said...

@Concerned Netizen: I wonder if the Chinese go for big tits as well? It's my impression that Chinese men don't. --- Chinese men are so into big tits that they're getting breast implants themselves (BBC; or in Chinese, written by Chinese journalists for those commenters who don't like ignorant white expat journalists and their imperialist language).

@Whiskey walking around Tsinghua University and the district around the major shopping and hotel areas, I never saw any attractive Chinese women. --- hot girls go to city/state schools to study "tourism" or "fashion design". Not the national Harvard/MIT wannabe-equivalent. Even more true in Asia than the US --- no female affirmative action to up their proportion at top tier schools, and far less social stigma for the girl whose "career plan" is an M.R.S. degree.

Anonymous said...

Felix,

What Zhang says is true. There are such clubs in China and Japan that ban entry to foreigners and by foreigners, I mean whites. The revulsion some Asians feel towards whites has more to do with social class in Asia than it has to do with aesthetics. Upper class Asian girls aren't gonna go for English teachers or business men unless they happen to be filthy rich. Zhang's anecdotal comments about whites smelling bad would be offensive if it wasn't so laughable. If it makes you feel any better, my former girlfriend, who is black, used to work with a lot of Asians at the university and she always commented about how she has never met an Asian (male or female) who didn't have horrible breath. She also said how she couldn't even eat with them because their eating habits disgusted her.

Troy said...

Oh there is always a lot of jealous Zhangs out there claiming to be local residents and cutting down the cross cultural couples and rationalizing that people don't like what they are importing and paying for whether it be models, prostitutes or etc. Many times they are even Caucasian,"Zhangs".

Anonymous said...

I wonder Mrs. Earl Woods has to say about that!

Yeah, I wondered the same thing.

Poor woman.

Locke said...

Not too mysterious, though -- the Chinese are right up there with the English in the ugliest race contest.

Strange how localized that is, since Scottish or Irish girls aren't that bad, and ditto Japanese or Vietnamese girls.


Out of the 3 NE Asian nations, Korean girls are probably most attractive followed by Chinese. Japanese girls are the ugliest.

Anonymous said...

We here in the USA have reciprocated, so the love affair goes both ways. Look at all the bozos we have parading around with Chinese characters tattooed on their bodies.

Anonymous said...

Chinese girls love white guys, anybody who has ever been to China or even areas of the USA with a large Asian population knows this.

Red Hot Magma said...

'Almost all of these kind of articles are written by women journalists, so they inevitably end with a ringing demand for social values to be revolutionized in order that, come the revolution, the reporterette will be considered hotter looking.'

Classic.

Anonymous said...

Clearly it's a result of the the self-hatred created by all those segregated classrooms in China lacking white students. The Chinese have come to see themselves as inferior in every way. We need to do a doll test just to make certain. Damn, where are Thurgood Marshall and John Hope Franklin and Kenneth Clark when we need them?

Anonymous said...

In a nation loaded with young Asian women,and they import blondes for models? White IT specialists are shaking their heads in wonder...

I've had crushes on a few Oriental women, but white women are generally more attractive, and there is more variety in their appearance. The short, rail thin, small-breasted, flat-faced appearance of most Oriental women is not generally a turn-on for most men.

I had a Japanese girlfriend my freshman year in college. That was 13 years ago. Over the last decade I could've sworn I've seen her twenty times in twenty very different places. It wasn't her, though. Their appearance can be so damn monotonous.

A couple of years ago I took a tall, German friend of mine - a former model back in his home country - to what at the time was one of the most popular nightclubs in Shanghai amongst trendy young Chinese. The door girls absolutely refused to permit him entry. When we finally managed to get him in, because someone in our clique knew a member of management, according to my German friend, all the girls just looked through him like a pane of glass.

Dude, I'm just certain that story is totally true. That's why you never see Oriental women dating or marrying white men in this country.

Of all the Oriental girls I was friends with in high school and college (and that would be a lot) all but one - the homeliest one - married a white guy. One dozen women trump your single German guy.

Most East Asians consider themselves superior both in looks and intelligence to Caucasians.

What people think and what people claim to think do not always match. HBDers know that to be true.

Blond hair comes in a bottle.

The fair skin to match, not so much.

Anthony Zhang said...

'Not too mysterious, though -- the Chinese are right up there with the English in the ugliest race contest.

I suspect that the extent of Agnostic's real-life experiences with Chinese of either gender is roughly on par with that of his real-life interactions with members of the opposite sex, who aren't either cringing, recoiling or directly related to him by blood.


'Haha! A very convenient story from our Chinese friend. It demonstrates that a)whites are not allowed to trendy Chinese clubs and b) it contains a handy deus ex machina that allows us to see that even if allowed entry, the Chinese girls are not interested in them at all.

The reality of course is the exact opposite of the above, but I can see why this version of the story might appeal to some Chinese males.'

Well, chat with any European or North American who tried to get into Shanghai's 'Babyface' nightclub on Huaihai road during the past couple of years. If their honest with you, they'll say that experiences have invariably been the same. And if you know Mandarin, ask any attractive, well-adjusted girl in Shanghai what she thinks about dating Westerners, or local women who date Westerners. You will not receive an enthusiastic response.

As stated previously - I've lived in Shanghai for a long time. Western expatriates in general - like the author of the article in question - have no idea what is going on in Chinese society, and have no idea about the attitudes or opinions of the general population. It's not necessarily because their dumb or undiscerning - very smart expat friends of mine are also quite clueless. It's because

a) They very rarely pick up the language (almost never in fact).

b) They rely on crude deductive reasoning to reach their conclusions about things.

Sad to say - as I am the citizen of a Western nation-state - this is one of a number of reasons that China has such an edge in competition against the West - whether it be economic or strategic. They know exactly what's going on on our side, while on our part, we understand very little of what's going on on theirs. You know this problem is acute when Western journalists based in China consistently fail to properly perform their duties.

Fred said...

In defense of Anthony Zhang, I can't speak about the facts on the ground there, but it is logically consistent for blond and brunette models to be in demand in China and for Chinese women to prefer non-Western men. Just look at our fashion models: some, to be sure, are very attractive, but others are less attractive than they are striking or attention-getting. In fact, some aren't attractive (from a typical heterosexual man's perspective) at all.

It's possible the Chinese look to Western models to be more attention-getting than attractive. In a country of 1.3 billion black-haired people, what could be more attention-getting than a blond?

The only flaw with my comment here so far is that it doesn't explain China's aversion to black models, but that could be explained by other factors; namely, a desire for China as real developing country to disassociate itself with Africa, a continent of "developing" countries.

agnostic said...

Zhang is clearly lying -- a tall, German male model friend. Hey, we all have one of those. At least make it sound plausible with "he was a real lady-killer back home" -- not a male model!

In fact, all of my friends freshman year of college were Chinese, nearly 20 of them. No good-lookers though.

My housemates not even one year ago were all foreigners from China. Again, all busted. There are lots of Japanese students on campus, though, and they look all right.

And btw, China has yet to win Miss Universe despite having the largest population to choose from. Japan's won twice, and Thailand once. The world agrees: the Chinese ain't that good-looking.

Locke said...

If you stay or work in the NE Asian countries, you'll find that the people there do find whites and certain white features attractive. And they aren't shy about stating or revealing this, either in regards to others or yourself. Even the guys there. It's not considered gay or even strange for guys there to remark that another guy is handsome or good looking. If you're a decent looking white guy over there, even straight Asian guys will remark that you're good looking and this won't be considered gay or unusual like it would be in the US.

As for the models thing, it's for both aesthetic reasons and for branding/imaging reasons. The NE Asians always make a big deal about being "global" (i.e. they're suckers for all that globalist "globalization" rhetoric though they don't really understand it and are immune to some of the more virulent aspects of it due to their natural ethnocentrism) and identify white models as being more chic, international, etc. and their native models as being parochial.

Now having said all this, while the NE Asians do find whites and white features attractive and will readily admit this, they do seem to in a way regard it as a curiosity and retain a strong preference for their own. You'll hear things like (from both sexes) how while so and so or some country has very attractive people, the best in this NE Asian country are the best, or something to that effect. And while they'll use Western models to spice up their images, they'll reserve all their top positions and attention for their native models. There really is this kind of wall that even aesthetic beauty that they'll readily acknowledge can't seem to pass through.

Anonymous said...

"And if you know Mandarin, ask any attractive, well-adjusted girl in Shanghai what she thinks about dating Westerners"

Most Shanghai peeps don't speak Mandarin.

Locke said...

I have no trouble believing Antoine Zhang's point about the Shanghai nightclubs. There are establishments throughout NE Asia that bar foreigners, including those from other NE Asian countries. And while good looking Western guys will get lots of attention at the average, less exclusive clubs filled with women who may have never come across a Western man in their lives, it can be very different at some of the more exclusive clubs with more exclusive women.

Locke said...

China is a huge place with regional variations, so it's a bit hard to compare with the other smaller, homogeneous NE Asian nations of Korea and Japan. There are of course attractive women in all 3 nations as there are everywhere, and personally I am partial to the Japanese "gravure" and "AV" models and actresses that are big there and throughout NE Asia, but for a question like this mean attractiveness has to be a major component and by this measure the ranking definitely goes Korea - China - Japan.

I love walking through Tokyo and people watching there - both the men and women dress stylishly and quite uniquely compared to the West. But the average woman there is not that attractive and has terrible teeth. After a day in Tokyo, Seoul is quite refreshing indeed. The mean Chinese woman is not that attractive and part of this is due to poorer presentation (clothes, style) but they're above the mean Japanese woman.

Antoine Zhang said...

'Zhang is clearly lying -- a tall, German male model friend. Hey, we all have one of those. At least make it sound plausible with "he was a real lady-killer back home" -- not a male model!'

Shanghai's an international city my callow and sexually-inexperienced young friend. You meet models and people in the entertainment industry all the time in the city, and it's generally not considered such a big deal. I guess with your limited life experience, however, the very concept must be utterly mind-blowing.

My German friend, I actually thought, would do quite well at the nightclub in question - he was tall, fey and slender - the type generally preferred by southern Chinese girls. And he had always been very popular with local girls at expat nightclubs. When I took him to different scene, however, completely different response - and he would be the first to admit it.

I would not consider the Miss Universe or World competition, or individuals you knew while you were at college, an absolute barometer of feminine attractiveness. You've demonstrated this kind defective reasoning on numerous occasions in the past which is odd for some who professes expertise in statistics - how's your little consulting business going I wonder?

I see I've touched a lot of raw male egos here, by recounting things accurately from the ground in China as they occur.

Let my clarify my own perspective - I don't deny that interracial relationships occur, I don't deem them unhealthy or unseemly - I partake of them myself quite often in fact. Personally I don't think one race is likely to be more or less average than an another in terms of physiognomy - I think these biases are simply the product of environment and upbringing.

I made remarks previously about how Chinese men consider caucasian women to have masculine features. Well, I certainly don't, but that's simply because I've been raised in a Western country. I think it's very easy to assume that our own aesthetic predilections are intrinsic and universal because, well, they act as direct brakes on our perceptions.

'Most Shanghai peeps don't speak Mandarin.'

Bullshit.

'Of all the Oriental girls I was friends with in high school and college (and that would be a lot) all but one - the homeliest one - married a white guy. One dozen women trump your single German guy.'

Yeah, but that's in the West, right. It's a different story elsewhere. And your one little anecdote is trumped by pretty much everything you see and hear of in Shanghai and elsewhere in China.

Antoine Zhang said...

Locke is also totally right about Koreans being the most attractive NE Asian race - I'd say them first, and perhaps also Northern Chinese. Japanese aren't that bad I feel - they're the most adept at make-up and grooming.

I'd say worst-looking (on average) - almost without question Cantonese (and my father is one as well).

Antoine Zhang said...

'The only flaw with my comment here so far is that it doesn't explain China's aversion to black models, but that could be explained by other factors; namely, a desire for China as real developing country to disassociate itself with Africa, a continent of "developing" countries.'

Unfortunately, that's just visceral, instinctive racism on the part of the Chinese.

Anonymous said...

I made remarks previously about how Chinese men consider caucasian women to have masculine features. Well, I certainly don't, but that's simply because I've been raised in a Western country. I think it's very easy to assume that our own aesthetic predilections are intrinsic and universal because, well, they act as direct brakes on our perceptions.




Wait a sec - are you saying that aliens from aother galaxy and giant gorillas are not really attracted to blondes?

Anonymous said...

"The only flaw with my comment here so far is that it doesn't explain China's aversion to black models, but that could be explained by other factors; namely, a desire for China as real developing country to disassociate itself with Africa, a continent of "developing" countries."

Let's use Occam's Razor. The Chinese concept of beauty, or even of acceptable physical appearance for a female, was pale skin, straight, smoothy, glossy, black, black hair; small, full mouth, and black eyebrows arching like slender wings and standing out against the pale skin. Even European beauty standards were more accepting of negroid characteristics than were those of the far East.
To the Chinese, Europeans have 'big noses', and alarming light hair and eyes, but somehow are less "opposite" the Chinese type than are blacks.
The author Pearl Buck (The Good Earth) grew up in China, daughter of missionaries. Fluent in Chinese she mingled among the crowds frequently. Her "Ama" (nursemaid) was a poor Chinese lady. When her Ama would hear people criticizing Pearl's blond hair and eyes, she would tell them, 'but look at her skin--how white it is." The Ama made a cap for Pearl to hide her blond hair, but sadly lamented she could do nothing to hide the blue eyes. She told Pearl it was too bad that Pearl had not inherited her mother's brown eyes and hair. One day, Pearl was the center of discussion in a crowd excitedly commenting on the habits of barbarian foreigners--that they ate children, etc. Little blue-eyes startled the socks off them by politely responding in Chinese that everything they said was a lie. They were in such amazement that she spoke in their language they offerred her sweets and let her play with their kids, since basically the Chinese did like kids a lot. There's a missionary story of one an anti-foreigner riot, where a lot of whites got killed. One western woman was running through the streets and a Chinese lady, stranger to her, stopped her and put her own baby in the white lady's arms for a while, saying that the rioters would not harm her if she was holding a baby. I don't know the outcome of that incident though.
Sometimes to get an idea of cultural realities you need to read first hand accounts. They can be eye openers.

Anonymous said...

So, Frank Zhang, why did you not honor the wishes of the other patrons of that nightclub and leave? Why force your way in with this Westerner?

Anonymous said...

One of Antoine Zhang's points is that women go for status, and that in Western countries where whites have more status it isn't surprising that women go for white men. In exclusive circles (e.g., at the club he mentions) in China whites don't have more status and so it should be no surprise to HBDers or evo-psychers that the patterns they observe at Ohio State University do not apply.

It's also true that white expats have no trouble finding girlfriends in Asia. There are a lot of poor women in Asia, the West still has a lot of cachet (as mentioned, as a symbol of cosmopolitanism or globalism), and within every Asian population there will be a minority population of women that are interested in the exotic, in rebelling against traditional values, etc.

If you read this comment carefully, you will understand that many of the claims on this thread are not mutually contradictory.

The level of body odor that most whites and blacks exhibit is rare among Asians. You can verify for yourself if you google around -- use the term "apocrine gland". Again, surprising that HBDers can't accept or understand this as the distribution follows the usual Rushton pattern.

Re: bad breath, etc., it's probably true that most mainlanders are not as careful about hygiene as people from richer, more developed countries. Most mainlanders barely know how to use makeup, whereas in Seoul or Tokyo women never go out unless carefully made up.

Personally, I think Koreans and NE Chinese are the most attractive, although I don't think that is the consensus within China.

If you want more first hand accounts, read the diaries of Japanese diplomats first sent on missions to the US and Europe -- they found European women to be hideous and often overly masculine.

Anonymous said...

Traveling in east and southeast Asia a lot during my twenties, I got a lot of female attention from the locals (it probably helped being tall and blond but Leonardo diCaprio in Titanic boyish-looking instead of huge and masculine), often of an endearingly awkward "she think you handsome!" giggly schoolgirl variety. As I people who'd lived there a lot longer about the phenomenon, they said that white guys, especially Americans, had the reputation of being nicer, more solicitous boyfriends than the local men.
So while conservatives may complain that feminism has neutered the American male, a lot of Asian women seem to consider us an attractive alternative to being treated like a domestic servant.

Anthony said...

Back in the late 80s, a short, cute, blonde friend of mine was considering getting into modeling, but had been turned down by a couple of agencies here (California) because she was too short. I mentioned this to another friend of mine, who said she should go to Hong Kong, because they loved blonde models, and preferred women closer to 5'3" for models. So this isn't really anything that new.

jody said...

i'm gonna have to agree with zhang in strict terms. i've never been to china, but i know with 100% certainty that there are many places in japan where you cannot enter if you are not japanese. and if you do somehow get in, the people won't be friendly.

he's talking about how chinese people in china react to other groups. not chinese people who voluntarily went to another country. in the US, chinese women like white men and date them. chinese men like white women and date them. heck, one of my own friends, a second generation guy who served in the navy, broke his father's planned marriage for him to a native chinese woman, so he could marry his white american girlfriend.

in china, things could be much different.

Svigor said...

Door girls? Are they the Chinese version of bouncers?

Don't you watch teevee? Better than Bruce Willis.

David said...

> people who'd lived there a lot longer about the phenomenon, they said that white guys, especially Americans, had the reputation of being nicer, more solicitous boyfriends than the local men. <

The grass is always greener. Foreign men excite, other things being roughly equal. The ultimate fictional parody of this is the first or second chapter of Bradbury's Martian Chronicles (Martian wife dreams of Earth men; check out the husband's response).

Anonymous said...

in Western countries where whites have more status it isn't surprising that women go for white men.




In which Western countries do whites have more status? Because I want to move there.

Svigor said...

Funny how no one responds to Zhang's funny and very true remarks.

Yeah, I know. Tell you what, copy & paste it into the comment box, but replace any reference to Europeans or their phenotypes with a reference to your choice of the following:

Asian
African
Jewish

You'll probably see more responses that way.

Svigor said...

If it makes you feel any better, my former girlfriend, who is black, used to work with a lot of Asians at the university and she always commented about how she has never met an Asian (male or female) who didn't have horrible breath.

Lemme guess: Koreans? I hear they eat a ton of garlic.

Svigor said...

The NE Asians always make a big deal about being "global" (i.e. they're suckers for all that globalist "globalization" rhetoric

I've watched a bit of anime and God yes, you can't watch any of it without stepping in some extremely overt globalism. You know, there was a worldwide apocalypse and the glorious UN stepped in to save us...

Anonymous said...

I don't really know what the average person looks like, but I find that the hottest models and actresses in East Asia are from Taiwan. So Chinese genes with Japanese/Korean wealth can look good indeed.

I think that Takeshi Kaneshiro is one of the most attractive males I've seen, not just in Asia but anywhere. He's half Japanese and half Taiwanese. He stars in both Chinese and Japanese movies because he can speak both languages perfectly.

Middletown Girl said...

I think Japan has a kind of black fetish. I recall Slam Dunk--manga about basketball where Japanese characters were made to look black--was very popular in the 90s. I heard NBA has become very popular in China too, so maybe at least black male icons--if not the female kind--will become very big over there.

Middletown Girl said...

"There are such clubs in China and Japan that ban entry to foreigners and by foreigners, I mean whites. The revulsion some Asians feel towards whites has more to do with social class in Asia than it has to do with aesthetics."

Maybe Asians feel uncomfortable when 'superior' whites are around. There are two kinds of 'racism'. The superiorist and the inferiorist kind. A group may feel hostility toward another group because it's considered inferior/unworthy OR superior/threatening. So, it could be that Chinese just want to have a place where they feel comfortable--as opposed to one where they feel less-worthy. Geeky Asian men may feel less-manly around white guys, and flat-butted/flat-chested Asian girls feel less gorgeous around better shaped white women. And, it could be Asian women pretend not to notice the good looks of a white guy because Asian culture stresses conformity. Going with a foreigner means you're violating certain tribal principles. Lack of individualism probably makes Asians more anxious about going freely with their individual desires.

In America, many white athletic clubs once banned blacks not because blacks athletic inferiority but because black superiority undermined white male pride. So, white exclusion of blacks--at least in the field of athleticism--was a case of inferioritist than superiorist racism. The notion that racism is ONLY supremacist is false.

Some people's racial hostility is really grounded in their sense of inferiority and vulnerability. Of course, most groups will not admit their sense of inadequacy since people generally want to feel good about themselves. So, even inferiorist racism will put on the face of superiorist racism. Thus, even though Japanese men during WWII were physically intimidated by white men, they came up with ideas such as 'white men have weak legs because they sit on chairs' or 'slender and creative Asian martial spirit and skills can defeat big and cumbersome white guys'. There were some Kenzaburo Oe short stories to that effect. Funny as hell.

Anonymous said...

"Antoine Zhang said...
Locke is also totally right about Koreans being the most attractive NE Asian race - I'd say them first, and perhaps also Northern Chinese. Japanese aren't that bad I feel - they're the most adept at make-up and grooming."



What is so sad is that every group Anthony mentions here has a far-below replacement birthrate, so we will be seeing less of these lovely women and neat, considerate men on the face of the earth as opposed to some other foreign groups that are breeding like flies (yet can't even feed themselves).

Some races are masculinized (the natural byproduct of a matriarchy, in which the most thuggish males get selected for over and over again), and some races are intermediately balanced between the masculine and the feminine, and some races are probably a mite bit effiminized through cultural mechanisms over hundreds of years. If the beautiful, delicate women of any group are identified early and impregnated often, the result would be a race with softer, more feminine facial characteristics over time. If women are allowed to choose the most overtly masculine men to breed with early and often, the result will be a race full of hyper-masculine facial and physical characteristics over time.

Middletown Girl said...

"Zhang's anecdotal comments about whites smelling bad would be offensive if it wasn't so laughable. If it makes you feel any better, my former girlfriend, who is black, used to work with a lot of Asians at the university and she always commented about how she has never met an Asian (male or female) who didn't have horrible breath. She also said how she couldn't even eat with them because their eating habits disgusted her."

The politics of odor is interesting. It's like the saying, 'every man loves the smell of his own fart'. The thing is most people don't notice the odors of their own cultures. Thus, Hindus don't know they stink of curry. Italians don't know they stink of garlic. (Chinese and Koreans are worse in this regard). Europeans eat some truly stinky cheeses. A hindu, though stinking of curry, will say a Chinese guy stinks of garlic. A Chinese, though stinking of garlic, will say a Hindu stinks of curry.
I once used to live in a multicultural highrise. There was like a hierarchy of stinkery. White people would find blacks stinking of grease and onions. Blacks would find Mexicans stinking of taco and salsa. Mexicans would find Chinese stinking of garlic and scallions. Chinese would find Hindus stinking of curry. Hindus would find Vietnamese stinking of rotten-fish-sauce.(Puke!) Vietnamese would find Koreans stinking of Kim Chee.
I think the top stinkers were the Koreans and Hindus(curry goes with them everywhere).

To be sure, some cultures are less hygenic than others. I think Germans and Japanese tend to be of the cleaner kind. WASPS too. But, Russians aren't known for their clean habits. Also, under communism, it was hard to buy soap or toothpaste, and Russians developed a habit of bathing maybe once a week and wiping their butts with newspaper.
China's entry into 20th century only began in the 80s, so there are still lots of Chinese with hygene habits of village life. I remember reading that Mao never brushed his teeth and only rinsed his mouth with green tea--common practice among Chinese peasants. And, Chinese eat dogs, cats, garlic, and use human doogie for fertilizer. Yech!

Ronduck said...

Antoine Zhang said...

You know this problem is acute when Western journalists based in China consistently fail to properly perform their duties.

AZ, the Western media in general and the US media specifically fail to report the facts correctly anywhere they are stationed. Think of the failure of the US media to adequately report on Black crime here in the States.

Anonymous said...

And if you know Mandarin, ask any attractive, well-adjusted girl in Shanghai what she thinks about dating Westerners

Defintion of "well-adjusted": not wanting to date Westerners.

How about, instead, "not prejudging a person based on their race, especially if that race happens to be one that's pretty good at creating rich, innovative, desirable societies that half your own countrymen want to move to."

Outland said...

"One of Antoine Zhang's points is that women go for status, and that in Western countries where whites have more status it isn't surprising that women go for white men."

Well, I guess there's something to it, that low status is unattractive, yet white men rarely end up en masse as destitutes, collecting change and shootin' up H. I doubt, they'd end up that way in China. White men will do fine in the status game.

sj071 said...

What about the Gypsy guys frequenting famous Shanghai night clubs? Can they score with those insecure Chinese models or not? If not, why?

A famous nightclub in S.= Gold Standard for 1.3 billion people. Brave world indeed...

You are Eric Schmidt and I claim my 5$.

Antoine Zhang said...

'So, Frank Zhang, why did you not honor the wishes of the other patrons of that nightclub and leave? Why force your way in with this Westerner?'

A friend's a friend, right, regardless of colour or creed? And its Antoine. I actually didn't know that he'd engender that reaction at the time. In fact, after that, he'd want to go there a lot, just to ogle.

'One of Antoine Zhang's points is that women go for status, and that in Western countries where whites have more status it isn't surprising that women go for white men. In exclusive circles (e.g., at the club he mentions) in China whites don't have more status and so it should be no surprise to HBDers or evo-psychers that the patterns they observe at Ohio State University do not apply.'

I'd agree with this. The things which confer status vary from circumstance to circumstance as well, and are oftentimes quite arbitrary - for example, not so long ago, the most coveted alpha males in my country of origin could be weedy, suffer from poor posture and complexion, but still enjoy perennial popularity with the opposite sex as long as they possessed some proficiency on a pair of turntables.

The funny thing in China at the moment is that because Westerners are so popular with venal grifters or opportunistic sex-worker types, in spite of the (still huge) economic advantages they enjoy, they are not considered a high-status catch by most local girls with middle-class aspirations, but instead considered a sign of desperation, and inability to obtain an affluent Chinese boyfriend. The saying abounds in Shanghai - 'If you want a wealthy husband but you're unattractive and charmless, just date a Westnerer - they can't tell the difference.'

There are also differences in basic predilections - i.e. I think Chinese girls, from the north as well the south, have a preference for men who are more slender than women in the West would deem attractive. There are a considerable number of gigolo bars in Shanghai (and the rest of China) who have a very attractive clientele of young trophy brides, kept mistresses and professional hostesses (I hear they are also very popular with neglected Japanese expat housewives). Those guys are in general very slender and fey in appearance, and would not be considered that attractive in an Anglo-Saxon country (France is another matter altogether). It's not as though you can't find stocky guys in China either - men from the north can be pretty solid.

Anonymous said...

Richburg is a black turncoat who appeals to whites by writing how appalled he was by Africa, as well as other things black. He's the same as these sniveling whites who try to play up to blacks, critiquing anything white as evil, etc. A turncoat can't be trusted, black or white.

jody said...

looks like other people are seeing the same thing as me. korean women seem to be the best looking east asians on average. i'd say it's probably

1 korean
2 japanese
3 chinese

that's only on average though. there's 3 times as many women in japan, and 30 times as many in china.

the vietnamese women are better than the koreans though, i'd say, and there's lots of good looking filipino women too. thai women can be hot, but they're like chinese women. lots of not so hot ones.

this is clearly a thread for roissy and his "beauty is objective, not subjective" hypothesis.

Richard Hoste said...

A couple of years ago I took a tall, German friend of mine - a former model back in his home country - to what at the time was one of the most popular nightclubs in Shanghai amongst trendy young Chinese. The door girls absolutely refused to permit him entry. When we finally managed to get him in, because someone in our clique knew a member of management, according to my German friend, all the girls just looked through him like a pane of glass.

I said "wow, good for the Chinese." Then I saw the name of the poster.

Next time, tell us you're Scots-Irish.

Stickem said...

I'm an Asian living in a western country and I'm basically invisible to all but fresh-off-the-boat Asians.

However, when I was in still-poor Baltic Europe, female heads were turning everywhere when I walked down the street and I got a lot of favorable attention in nightclubs - and not just from hookers.

Since these countries essentially get no Asian immigration, one of two things is happening:
1. The sheer uniqueness of my appearance is attracting favorable attention; or
2. Given the high probability that I am an international traveler, I am instantly assumed to be in a vastly superior class to any of the locals and thus attractive (more likely)

So I'd say there's some truth to Zhang's story - that social forces can conspire to distort peoples' perspective of attractivness. However, once they are removed, there's no escaping the black-white-yellow trichotomy.

Sam said...

Non-white cultures (Latin American, South Asian , East Asian) are horribly racist. They judge other cultures by skin colour and build a social heirarchy in their own on light skin. I've noticed the most vociferous minorities that whine about imaginary racism tend to be lighter skinned - they don't get any status in white society based on their lighter skin.

I think this explains non-white cultures' fascination with white women.

Middletown Girl said...

"However, when I was in still-poor Baltic Europe, female heads were turning everywhere when I walked down the street and I got a lot of favorable attention in nightclubs - and not just from hookers."

Maybe they mistook you for Jackie Chan.

Truth said...

"So, Frank Zhang, why did you not honor the wishes of the other patrons of that nightclub and leave? Why force your way in with this Westerner?"

1) Where did he write that he did not "honor their wishes?"

2) If rejected, what other choice did he have

3) What gave you the idea he "forced his way in?"

4) How was he supposed to know his friend would not be allowed in?

I worked for a Korean company, and had a friend who taught English in Taiwan, Asian groups more than any others seem to value going with the group. In China Zhang is probably telling the truth, upper class Chinese women don't date whites because the group does not. In America, upper class Asian women don't date Asians, because the group does not.

In Taiwan, a guy who taught English told me that the locals believed that the white guys were more attracted to the "ugly" Chinese girls; that is the ones who were slightly taller, not stick thin, with suntans and breasts and butts. He said that Taiwanese men all over Taipei seemed perplexed by this.

I think you've been watching to many episodes of The Sopranos.

Walter said...

To be sure, some cultures are less hygenic than others. I think Germans and Japanese tend to be of the cleaner kind. WASPS too. But, Russians aren't known for their clean habits. Also, under communism, it was hard to buy soap or toothpaste, and Russians developed a habit of bathing maybe once a week and wiping their butts with newspaper.

I don't think the Germans are dirty, but they do reek of body odor, especially in the summertime. They either don't seem to use deoderant or their natural body odor is just too powerful or something.

I was in Berlin this past summer, and man, it's a weird experience to be in an elevator with or in close proximity to cute German girls who smell like your old college roommate and his unwashed football gear.

Truth said...

Here's an articleyou jeune hommes may find interesting.

Anonymous said...

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/12/29/china_is_the_destiny_of_siberia?page=0,1

One feature of the Russian-Chinese relationship seemed especially telling: Cross-border marriages are overwhelmingly between Chinese men and Russian women. Much of this has to do with demographics-Russia has a surplus of women, while China has too many men. But as one Russian woman told me, "Chinese men are kinder and more attentive to their wives. And they usually have more money."

Truth said...

...Oh, and another funny story:

I was gambling a few years ago at a Casino in Bellflower, L.A. (21 blackjack; killing them bastards!)when two young well dressed Asians sit next to me. L.A. Casinos, for whatever reason are much more social than those in Vegas, or god forbid, Atlantic City, so we struck up a conversation;

They were extremely outgoing, and etroverted as far as Asians go, and as I had worked in Korea, I tried to speak to them in broken Korean, the guy knew what I was saying but he said that he was raised in Argentina and Spanish was his first language.

I asked him about the women in Argentina, and said that I might be interested in going, one of them said to me, "yeah, the Argentina women are OK, but you need to go to Brazil first, those women are beautiful!"

I said "really?", and he said, excitedly; "OH YEAH, THEY HAVE REALLY BIG ASSES!"

The nature/nurture thing took a whole different turn for me that day.

Middletown Girl said...

"One feature of the Russian-Chinese relationship seemed especially telling: Cross-border marriages are overwhelmingly between Chinese men and Russian women."

Russian women must be crazy to marry a bunch of geeky dog-eaters.

wren said...

Hmm. Pictures on the web of "Babyface" seem to have plenty of foreigners (both male and female) in them.

A description includes this:

"Babyface is perennially crowded with local teenyboppers, scenesters, international students and older Asian expat males on the prowl."

;-)

Grad Stalin said...

Right on, Zhang. It's hard for many of the Caucasians on this board to realize they're yesterday's news. They'll even brag about the ridiculous amount of blondes/whites on pornsites as if it's indicative of some type of prowess, rather than a display of the most abject whoredom indicating, of course, the dissolution of the whole race.

These people died in the middle of last century and they don't even know it. They're ghosts.

Locke said...

the vietnamese women are better than the koreans though, i'd say, and there's lots of good looking filipino women too. thai women can be hot, but they're like chinese women. lots of not so hot ones.

I guess most other white guys don't really differentiate between NE and SE Asian women, but I've traveled extensively in those regions so I guess I differentiate between them more. There are attractive women from both groups of course, but the SE Asian women have a different "look" about them and it's really a matter of preference which "look" is better on average.

bacchanal said...

Russian women must be crazy to marry a bunch of geeky dog-eaters.

It's not clear from the article what ethnicity these "Russian" women are. There are Asian minorities such as Altaic peoples, Tatars, Khazaks, etc. in Russian Siberia and the Russian Far East. It's possible that many or most of these marriages are between Asian women of Russian citizenship and Chinese men.

burger king said...

"Russian women must be crazy to marry a bunch of geeky dog-eaters."

Middletown Girl/Andrea Freiboden,

Not crazy - probably desperate or something. I'm sure these guys are beta provider types.

Also, it's funny to hear this kind of snark coming from a guy who's from a group that has overwhelmingly and shamelessly been the sexual aggressor against East Asian populations.

Although it certainly isn't surprising, considering that you spend all your time pretending to be a girl online and writing up long-winded, inane ramblings on race and culture on your blog and in various comment threads. Someone like you would feel threatened by sexual competition from East Asian males, of all people.

Anonymous said...

"Chinese girls love white guys, anybody who has ever been to China or even areas of the USA with a large Asian population knows this."

White guys love Chinese girls.

Anonymous said...

1) Where did he write that he did not "honor their wishes?"

2) If rejected, what other choice did he have

3) What gave you the idea he "forced his way in?"

4) How was he supposed to know his friend would not be allowed in?

- truth

1) Is entering a place where you aren't wanted "honoring" the wishes of the place?

2) Leave and go somewhere where your business is wanted.

3) Appealing to a friend in management to override the standing orders of the employees is, in my mind, "forcing your way in".

4) It doesn't matter if he couldn't know in advance. Just turn around and leave.

Sheesh.

Curvaceous Carbon-based Life Form said...

Truth said:
"I asked him about the women in Argentina, and said that I might be interested in going, one of them said to me, "yeah, the Argentina women are OK, but you need to go to Brazil first, those women are beautiful!"


"I said "really?", and he said, excitedly; "OH YEAH, THEY HAVE REALLY BIG ASSES!"

The nature/nurture thing took a whole different turn for me that day."

Somebody said something the other day about Truth having played hooky from his irony-detection classes in college. I think they were onto something.

Truth, dear, sweetie, the Asian was making fun of you. He was telling YOU to go to Brazil where YOU could find women YOU'D like.

Anonymous said...

Frank Zhang's rationalizations are pathetic. The truth is that Chinese do very much idealize blondes; they are considered superior not just by the marketing industry and media, but by **multiple surveys of Chinese women**. This is in contrast with India, which still overwhelmingly prefers light skinned Indians as models/bollywood stars.

The Chinese disdain for black skin (whether African or Indian) is also well established.

Anonymous said...

Right on, Zhang. It's hard for many of the Caucasians on this board to realize they're yesterday's news... These people died in the middle of last century and they don't even know it. They're ghosts.


List of countries and territories by fertility rate
en.wikipedia.org

Japan, UN, 2000-2005: 1.29
Japan, UN, 2005-2010: 1.27, 184 of 195
Japan, CIA, 2000: 1.41
Japan, CIA, 2008: 1.22, 215 of 223

South Korea, UN, 2000-2005: 1.24
South Korea, UN, 2005-2010: 1.21, 192 of 195
South Korea, CIA, 2000: 1.72
South Korea, CIA, 2008: 1.20, 218 of 223

Northern Mariana Islands [USA], UN, 2000-2005: N/A
Northern Mariana Islands [USA], UN, 2005-2010: N/A
Northern Mariana Islands [USA], CIA, 2000: 1.76
Northern Mariana Islands [USA], CIA, 2008: 1.18, 219 of 223

Taiwan, UN, 2000-2005: N/A
Taiwan, UN, 2005-2010: N/A
Taiwan, CIA, 2000: 1.76
Taiwan, CIA, 2008: 1.13, 220 of 223

Singapore, UN, 2000-2005: 1.35
Singapore, UN, 2005-2010: 1.26, 186 of 195
Singapore, CIA, 2000: 1.16
Singapore, CIA, 2008: 1.08, 221 of 223

Hong Kong, UN, 2000-2005: 0.94
Hong Kong, UN, 2005-2010: 0.97, 194 of 195
Hong Kong, CIA, 2000: 1.27
Hong Kong, CIA, 2008: 1.00, 222 of 223

Macau, UN, 2000-2005: 0.84
Macau, UN, 2005-2010: 0.91, 195 of 195
Macau, CIA, 2000: 1.30
Macau, CIA, 2008: 0.90, 223 of 223

Eric said...

Russian women must be crazy to marry a bunch of geeky dog-eaters.

Russian guys drink. A lot. A woman looking for a husband who's going to be mostly sober doesn't have a large pool of guys to choose from in Russia. There's a reason Russian men can only expect to live to 59.

Anonymous said...

"Chinese girls love white guys, anybody who has ever been to China or even areas of the USA with a large Asian population knows this."

White guys love Chinese girls.

In order to form a couple, the man must be attracted to the woman and the woman must be attracted to the man. If a European man "chooses" an Oriental woman, does that prove that Oriental women are superior to European women; that European men are superior to Oriental men; or both; or neither?

How do you measure that? I guess you could measure that based on who gets the better catch of who. Are Oriental women turning down offers from otherwise superior (educationally and financially) Oriental men to be with white men, or are the Oriental men they're passing up of equal or even lesser status?

In my experience the European men most likely to be married to Oriental women fall into two broad categories: geeky men, and current/ex-military men.
In the case of the latter, one could say that the Oriental women, generally immigrants, got something extra into the bargain: American residence/citizenship. They may be marrying up, down, or over, but they're getting the added financial benefit of living in the US. In exchange, the military men may be marrying someone more attractive or otherwise better than they could've married back home.

In the case of the former, these Oriental women (usually already American) seem to simply be marrying white versions of the Oriental men they could've married.

But overall, in my personal experience, Oriental women are willing to date/marry slightly down (in terms of academics/intelligence/wealth) in order to be with a European man. European men are generally dating/marrying someone of equal/superior intelligence to the white women they could've dated.

I would say this suggests that Oriental women are more physically attracted to European men than European men are to Oriental women.

Anonymous said...

In Taiwan, a guy who taught English told me that the locals believed that the white guys were more attracted to the "ugly" Chinese girls; that is the ones who were slightly taller, not stick thin, with suntans and breasts and butts. He said that Taiwanese men all over Taipei seemed perplexed by this.

Is this true, or something they tell to comfort themselves?

It would be interesting (to say the least) to study Oriental pr0n sites and see which Oriental women Europeans find most attractive and which ones Orientals find most attractive.

I'm guessing the results wouldn't differ by much. To the extent that it is true, it may be only so in the sense that men generally aren't attracted to, or are even intimidated by, women taller than themselves. A study of responses to pr0n might hide this result, as you can't necessarily determine a woman's height from a picture.

Anonymous said...

overwhelmingly and shamelessly been the sexual aggressor against East Asian populations.



Who writes crap like this other than professors of something-or-other "studies"?

Svigor said...

I was in Berlin this past summer, and man, it's a weird experience to be in an elevator with or in close proximity to cute German girls who smell like your old college roommate and his unwashed football gear.

As far as I can gather, by European standards Americans are obsessed with hygiene.

Svigor said...

White guys love Chinese girls.

So do black guys.

Middletown Girl said...

burger king:

"long-winded, inane ramblings on race and culture"

---

Okay, I'll give it to you short and straight. I don't see any point in a girl going with a guy half her size.

Svigor said...

They'll even brag about the ridiculous amount of blondes/whites on pornsites as if it's indicative of some type of prowess, rather than a display of the most abject whoredom indicating, of course, the dissolution of the whole race.

That would be silly, since the vast majority of them are bottle blondes, many of Levantine ancestry.

Now if we're measuring the dissolution of races via porn proclivity, then bye-bye, Japan.

Walter said...

As far as I can gather, by European standards Americans are obsessed with hygiene.

Still. A girl should never smell like a big sweaty college football player and his gear.

Anonymous said...

This thread, although unusual and intense reading on heretofore hush-hush subject matter, is slightly dismaying.

I always thought of whites and asians as somewhat natural allies in humanity representing the highest levels of civilization, dignified behavior, and contemplation. Not crypto-resenters of one another.


Anthony Zhang (and some other contributers) have brought up the issue of body odors and breath. DIET is probably the answer to all of this. When whites (like me) hit the gym, we definitely sweat a great deal and smell like a mini-football locker-room after pumping iron or jogging-the-treadmill. I imagine the glycemic index load of our diet/high sugar intake will someday be found to influence this. Ive noticed when working in -close-proximity to some Asians that their breath had a particular odor to it, but immediately chalked it up to whatever they had been eating (green tea, soya, tofu, miso soup, a mixture of all of the above, whatever ethnic dish they like that I was unaware of), and did NOT attribute it to some sort of inherent malfunction of their saliva failing to quell the natural bacteria in their human mouths.


Deoderant, soap, and chewing gum (especially gum with xylitol-which actively helps fight cavities and is not being put into many commerical brands) are cheap countermeasures that can gleefully make us forget these small tendencies.

Happy New Year to everybody at Steve's.

Felix said...

Hmm, now I've heard a lot of contradictory things about Chinese girls and their attraction to us white guys. My own experience as a college student in a university with a large Asian population is that they love us.

That's for the US. As far as China proper goes, I've not been there but by most accounts that I've heard, it's a heaven for young, single Western expats. And it's not just Westerners telling me this. Not too long ago I was talking to a Taiwanese guy who's here studying for his MBA, when I told him I'm taking Mandarin he very enthusiastically told me I have to go to Taiwan because the girls there love white guys. According to him, if I went to a night club I'd be able to pick and point to any girl I'd want.

Now this sounds hard to believe, but I find it even harder to believe that a tall, handsome German male model would be unappealing to Chinese girls, even if they be "high class." I can understand that maybe Chinese standards of beauty are different, but male traits such as height are basically universally found attractive. Not to mention that just by virtue of being German the expected life earnings of this guy are several times higher than those of the Chinese middle class.

Anonymous said...

White guys love Chinese girls. So do black guys.

Yeah, when you look at native asian fertility rates, and then compare them with all the little half-white/half-asian kids that the white guys are making here in the USA, then you almost get the feeling that the only people who DON'T love Chinese girls are the Chinese guys themselves.

Weird.

Weird, weird, weird, weird, weird.

Anonymous said...

"Okay, I'll give it to you short and straight. I don't see any point in a girl going with a guy half her size."

If he is half her size then she is most likely obese. Asian men will not date fat girls unless they are fat themselves and have no status. And why would a supposed white woman care about who other white women date? You could have just said "I don't find Asian men attractive" and left it at that but your protestations sound less of those coming from a woman. Rather it sounds like a man trying to protect the women from his tribe from exogamy. It's posts like these and your frat boy potty mouth that give it away that you are really a guy who posts as a woman so he can get some attention.

Truth said...

"I always thought of whites and asians as somewhat natural allies in humanity representing the highest levels of civilization, dignified behavior, and contemplation...Anthony Zhang..."

The man's name is Antoine there, "defender of intellect."

"3) Appealing to a friend in management to override the standing orders of the employees is, in my mind, "forcing your way in".


A "friend is management" is a representative of the club, presumably a higher ranking representative than the girls at the door, therefore, when the friend allowed them to enter, the club wanted them there.

"4) It doesn't matter if he couldn't know in advance. Just turn around and leave."

Why travel a half-hour in each direction to be unsuccessful when you can simply use your network to achieve success. That, Barack Obama, is how capitalist societies work.

"Truth, dear, sweetie, the Asian was making fun of you. He was telling YOU to go to Brazil where YOU could find women YOU'D like..."

Well that's funny Skippy, I read his earnest and lustful reaction totally differently, and well, seeing as how I was there and you weren't...

"It's posts like these and your frat boy potty mouth that give it away that you are really a guy who posts as a woman so he can get some attention"

I dunno M.G.; One of your melanin-challenged brethren cuts you off at the knees every day.

At this point we could probably see your feet on your driver's license photo!

Antoine Zhang said...

'Now this sounds hard to believe, but I find it even harder to believe that a tall, handsome German male model would be unappealing to Chinese girls, even if they be "high class." I can understand that maybe Chinese standards of beauty are different, but male traits such as height are basically universally found attractive. Not to mention that just by virtue of being German the expected life earnings of this guy are several times higher than those of the Chinese middle class.'

I was surprised myself, but this is exactly what happened. Fortunately for my German friend, he has contracted a severe case of 'Yellow Fever', so has not been too fussy.

It's amazing to me that certain male egos are so sensitive that they enter a state of total denial, or issue immediate and unconsidered accusations of deceit, when presented with a set of data which isn't to their pleasing, or which would indicate that under certain circumstances they occupy a position of disadvantage sexually.

I find Richard Hoste's suggestion that I assume a non-Chinese pseudonym quite unusual and strange - for what reason? To make my set of objective data more palatable to insecure caucasian guys, who desperately need the reassurance of heightened attactiveness on the basis of ethnicity?

'But overall, in my personal experience, Oriental women are willing to date/marry slightly down (in terms of academics/intelligence/wealth) in order to be with a European man. European men are generally dating/marrying someone of equal/superior intelligence to the white women they could've dated.

I would say this suggests that Oriental women are more physically attracted to European men than European men are to Oriental women.'

I'd assert the absolute opposite is the case in China. In China, it's usually European/Western men with considerably greater earning capacity/qualifications than the local average shacking up or marrying girls who, by Chinese standards, are considered sub-par or bottom of the barrel - in terms of looks, personality, upbringing, etc.

The Yellow Fever I mentioned above has proven to be an astonishing virulent illness amongst Westerners in Asia - Chinese joke that there must be something wrong with their eyes, because they are willing to date the most unattractive local girls. This is perhaps an exaggeration, but from my own empirical observations, not much of one.

'Truth said:
"I asked him about the women in Argentina, and said that I might be interested in going, one of them said to me, "yeah, the Argentina women are OK, but you need to go to Brazil first, those women are beautiful!"


"I said "really?", and he said, excitedly; "OH YEAH, THEY HAVE REALLY BIG ASSES!"

The nature/nurture thing took a whole different turn for me that day."

Somebody said something the other day about Truth having played hooky from his irony-detection classes in college. I think they were onto something.

Truth, dear, sweetie, the Asian was making fun of you. He was telling YOU to go to Brazil where YOU could find women YOU'D like.'

I dig big asses. I think it's both nature and nurture.

Svigor said...

I always thought of whites and asians as somewhat natural allies in humanity representing the highest levels of civilization, dignified behavior, and contemplation. Not crypto-resenters of one another.

All groups are crypto-resenters of one another. This is a sign of health. Doesn't mean groups can't have a certain respect for one another.

And why would a supposed white woman care about who other white women date?

Racial awareness?

Anonymous said...

I'd assert the absolute opposite is the case in China. In China, it's usually European/Western men with considerably greater earning capacity/qualifications than the local average shacking up or marrying girls who, by Chinese standards, are considered sub-par or bottom of the barrel - in terms of looks, personality, upbringing, etc.

Even taking you at your word, I'd suggest that a) in absolute terms, there are more mixed European/Oriental relationships in the West than in China, based on simple numbers; b) the mixed relationships in China are more temporary in nature; c) the better women in China know they're just temporary girlfriends, and so many turn their noses up at white men; d) there is a dearth of European women in China, as many of the men there for temporary business reasons; e) judging the quality of a woman is harder to do when she was raised and still lives in a foreign culture, speaking a language the man probably doesn't speak (or doesn't speak well).

That's why looking at mixed race relationships in the US, between two US citizens, is a better indicator of who finds whom more attractive.

kenny said...

It's easy to test whether Mr Zhang's pronouncement about Caucasians are not being accepted into Shanghai's hip clubs.

I searched on Flickr for Shanghai Babyface, and first few picture I found was of .... caucasians with asian women.. and the reverse ..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jhudson/118340231/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/drurin/3873637687/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacqalee1/439451490/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/drurin/3873632745/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rulex/50048785/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rulex/50048859/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rulex/50048847/in/set-1086340/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jhudson/118340161/

How odd. Looks like someone is lying :)

Captain Jack Aubrey said...

I couldn't care less where on the scale of attractiveness the rest of the world rates white women or even white men.

Heck, I'd be happy if the rest of the world considered white women to be the least attractive - then white guys wouldn't face competition for white women from other races.

Consider black women: they aren't generally thought to be the most attractive. As a race, they're in either third or fourth - behind Asians and Whites, certainly, though possibly ahead of pure Amerindians.

The result is that black women are the exclusive province of black men, who prefer to love 'em and leave 'em. Nice work (for a black guy) if you can get it.

Anonymous said...

Truth: In case you didn't notice, he's been posting both as "Anthony" and "Antoine", so your sarcasm is misplaced.

Yeah, when you look at native asian fertility rates, and then compare them with all the little half-white/half-asian kids that the white guys are making here in the USA, then you almost get the feeling that the only people who DON'T love Chinese girls are the Chinese guys themselves.

Americans (as an aggregate; not breaking things down by ethnicity) have higher birth rates than most of the developed world. The US has a larger landmass than Japan and Korea, with a higher percentage of it being arable land; and we don't have the antinatalist public policies of China. Considering those and other variables that are in play, it's hard to compare.

Truth said...

I stand corrected.

Grad Stalin said...

"That would be silly, since the vast majority of them are bottle blondes, many of Levantine ancestry."

LOL. Keep telling yourself that, Svigor, like all the other old school, delusional WNs unable to stare reality in the face.

As for the dude who listed fertility rates in his bid to show that the East Asians are somehow not the rising ethnic bunch on the scene, what are you even trying to prove? That Burundi or East Timor are more badass than Taiwan because they make more kids? Again, the blandly termed "white" man, defined by a term which signifies no cultural or historical anything, wields no power and is, for all intents and purposes, already out of the game. That's why he writes on message boards instead of setting national policy. He doesn't control his own destiny, and if you know of a land where he does, let the guys here know, 'cause I'm sure plenty of them would head out in the morning.

If you're ever in L.A., hit a bar in Koreatown - not a hipster one, a Korean one. Sit, observe, chat occasionally. The chicks' fathers tell them not to hang out with whites. Can't say I blame 'em. It's how whites themselves used to act when they were healthy.

Antoine Zhang said...

'It's easy to test whether Mr Zhang's pronouncement about Caucasians are not being accepted into Shanghai's hip clubs.

I searched on Flickr for Shanghai Babyface, and first few picture I found was of .... caucasians with asian women.. and the reverse ..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jhudson/118340231/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/drurin/3873637687/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacqalee1/439451490/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/drurin/3873632745/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rulex/50048785/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rulex/50048859/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rulex/50048847/in/set-1086340/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jhudson/118340161/

How odd. Looks like someone is lying :)'

Sorry Kenny, but Babyface changed management years ago and hasn't been flavour of the month since 2007.

David said...

At the end of the day, it's still easier for a white guy to pick up an Asian chick than for an Asian guy to pick up a white chick.

Captain Jack Aubrey said...

If you're ever in L.A., hit a bar in Koreatown - not a hipster one, a Korean one. Sit, observe, chat occasionally. The chicks' fathers tell them not to hang out with whites...

And yet they do. Oh, they do. As a kid, most of my Asian friends' parents used to tell them the same thing. Nearly all of the girls wound up marrying white guys.

Mr. Zhang prefers to cite events as he claims they are in China, where most of us haven't travelled, in hip bars, where probably none of us have been. Awesome. Why look at China when we can look at America? Why accept his claim ("only ugly Asian women date white men") when we can simply look around us.

In any case, marrying outside of your race is probably the exception rather than the norm. Except possibly in the case of East Asian women who are US citizens, where it may very well be approaching a majority. I'd wager they have the highest rate of interracial marriage of all, even after having heard their entire lives not to marry those blue-eyed white devils. But according to Mr. Zhang we're supposed to believe that doesn't mean squat.

Truth said...

"LOL. Keep telling yourself that, Svigor, like all the other old school, delusional WNs unable to stare reality in the face."

He's questioning your commitment to the cause there, Svig-Meister.

Jeeva Raja said...

agnostic said...
"And btw, China has yet to win Miss Universe despite having the largest population to choose from. Japan's won twice, and Thailand once. The world agrees: the Chinese ain't that good-looking."

When I saw ugly looking brown chicks win over beautiful blue eyed blondes, I knew that the Miss World competition is rubbish.
India has won a large number of beauty pageants, but the typical Indian woman looks like this.
http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2008/03/19/slum-women-in-protest_7816.jpg
http://static.ibnlive.com/pix/sitepix/01_2008/women_removal_313.jpg

Miss World means nothing. I am Indian myself. The number of attractive Indian people is very very very very small as a percentage of the general Indian population. Comparatively the number of attractive people as a percantage is far greater in the Far East or Europe. In India, the percantage increases in the Northernmost parts but decreases exponentially in South India. Yet we win so many Miss World contests!Yet I have seen far far far more attractive women on the streets of Edinburgh than on the streets of Bombay.

Toadal said
"I propose we determine Chinese males tastes in women by determining the percentages of Japanese, Chinese, European, Indian and African girls viewed on pornographic sites in Taipei, Taiwan."

The answer is simple. Chinese, Japanese and Europeans would be much much more popular than Indian and African girls. I think if such a study were to be carried out in say, Warsaw or Budapest, the result would be tha same.

Svigor said...

LOL. Keep telling yourself that, Svigor, like all the other old school, delusional WNs unable to stare reality in the face.

Put your money where your mouth is?

Anonymous said...

Grad Stalin reminds me of Tokyo Rose - give up, Whitey, resistance is futile. All those Eastern geniuses spitting on the street are vastly superior to us, because they don't blog.

Grad Stalin said...

"Put your money where your mouth is?"

You seem pretty adept at using the intermuhnet, Svi. It's not that hard to find the evidence of the absolutely whorish detritus of your people. If you ever want to surmount that barrier you've put up between yourself and the reality of what you guys have become, I guess an easy thing to do is find a porn site with categories and compare the number of links within that category (i.e. "German", "Swedish", "Asian", etc...) to other categories. Check the chicks out yourself and see if they qualify as "white" to you - they sure do to millions upon millions of others.

Anonymous, you have no idea where I'm coming from. Keep thinking you're on top of the world, pal - the remaining whites have reached the evolutionary plateau of being the perfect slave.

Captain Jack Aubrey said...

If you ever want to surmount that barrier you've put up between yourself and the reality of what you guys have become...

As opposed to what every other race on the planet has become? Black Africans, anyone? Or Arabs? Or Mestizos? Or East Asians?

The only major weakness in the white race is our weakness for believing in leftist socialism and multiculturalism. Whether we'll overcome that weakness is anyone's guess, but our supposed addiction to porn is not more of a problem for us than for any other race. White men have to be carefully taught to believe in leftist rubbish. For men all over the world, the love of attractive, nubile, nude young women comes more or less naturally.

Svigor said...

GS, don't try to move the goalposts. You said blonds, I responded they're mostly faux blondes (many of whom are Levantines). You don't get to make it about whites/non-whites ex post facto.

Now, if you want to talk about Hungarians, fine, but you said blonds.

Nordics are vastly underrepresented amongst Caucasoid porn stars.

Svigor said...

But if you don't want to put your money where your mouth is, you can always just STFU.

Anonymous said...

Grad Stahlin said:

"the remaining whites have reached the evolutionary plateau of being the perfect slave."

Interesting comment, but ambiguous. Care to explain what you meant?

Grad Stalin said...

Look, Svi, honestly, take five goddamned minutes and go to some site - it's just not that hard. Stop being such a reactionary and assess a situation without blinders. I'm not moving any goalposts - I started off talking about blondes/whites in porn, conflating the two. It was you who made that bizarre old man statement about "bottle blondes" and "levantines". Levantines versus, say, Slavs in porn? Give us a break, man.

Here, from some site I just went to:

asian - 13,967
blonde - 44,943

Take into account population differential between the two groups, which certain people here always fail to do when bragging about "their" white side shacking up with the other side's women.

If you ever want your ideas to move forward - and obviously people who come here know what you desire - then you're going to have to face the reality of what "white" or even "blonde" actually means now, today, not what it used to mean in, say, 1910. If you don't think blondes are known for being whores and their "nordic" male counterparts known for being effeminate pussies, then you live in a weird world, bro. And if you ever are able to recognize the current scene as it is, like those guys writing in the Mahabarata or the Torah back in the day, then maybe you'll think of smarter ways to survive rather than taking every empty slut under your ideological wing just because she vaguely resembles you.

This thread is too long. I won't be posting again.

Anonymous said...

I am South Asian as the ip log will tell you. I grew up with deep mistrust of the other 'Chinese race' and like the elite of my country chose to see myself as a brownster caucasian with all the psychological retardation that a legacy of colonization brings. Well people change and the times they are a-changing. The world is moving from a teutonic template of beauty to a east-asian/eurasian one. East asian ads have begun to steal slots previously held by other 'international' models on prime time in my country. And I, like most natives, do not truly believe in a manifest destiny of India as a superpower, but still given a choice independent of patriotic preferences, I would prefer East Asian world hegemony over a Western one.

Considering that white supremacy has worked in insidious ways over the past few centuries and caused more misery in the name of democracy, pluralism and other specious inventions used to disguise their global aggrandizing missions. The cream of white civilization that comment here are behind their sophistries, pretty brazen in their racialist notions of 'the other' and his inferiority so it serves to keep a check.

Coming to the question of East Asians considering themselves superior to Westerners intellectually and aesthetically, lets all agree on a few HBD facts.

East Asians on average outlive westerners the environment as constant.

East Asians age slower compared to westerners.

East Asians are less hairy compared to westerners with Africans being the hairiest.

East Asians are less inclined to gaining weight or mental morbidity.

East Asians have a natural immunity to several diseases westerners do not.

The well documented East Asian IQ advantage.

There are other things such as their historical moorings and natural social cohesion but those are to moot.

So why is it of such surprise to some people here that they consider themselves superior?