October 27, 2009

Jews v. Episcopalians on IQ

A reader writes:
According to the National Longitudinal Study of Youth 1997, the average IQ of Jewish youngsters is 111.3, and Episcopalians 110.3.

Other groups include.
Catholic 101.5
Mormons 103.0
Atheist 105.4

Jews are less than half as likely as the average to join the military, whereas Episcopalians are only slightly below average in enlistments.

Along those lines, here's a 2002 article I wrote on the demographic breakdown of the U.S. armed services personnel based on what religion they choose to have stamped on their dog tags.

My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer

76 comments:

Anonymous said...

From your 2002 article:

"Muslims, who make up about 1 percent of the population, according to a Center for Immigration Studies report by Daniel Pipes and Khalid DurĂ¡n, are somewhat more represented in the military on a per capita basis than Jews, but are less represented than Christians."

I can picture Auster just seething with rage after reading this paragraph.

Bob said...

This is a much better sample that SAT scores!

It also shows that the commenter who said the Ashkenazi average is only 110 is wrong, given this sample of Jew would include non-Ashkenazi Jews plus the product of mixed marriages who identify as Jewish, and still has an average of 111.3.

Bob said...

BTW Steve, I love these well-sourced ethnic data posts!

An anonymous Jew said...

I am engaged to an Episcopalian. Her SAT was 1300 (based on the old scoring system).

Anthony said...

@Bob,

Why do you think that people who marry Jews have lower IQs on average (as they will tend to mate from a selective part of Gentile society)?

Anyone know the % of Jews in the U.S. that are Ashkenazim vs. non-Ashkenazim?

Anonymous said...

I think the really crucial piece of iq data for understanding Jewish differences from other groups in their behavior with reference to other groups is not overall iq but their verbal iq. The 111.3 figure doesn't give us as accurate a sense of how cognitively different they are from the average as well as their average verbal iq in the 120 range. This is the score that explains most of their different behavior and their nearly uniform financial success, even beyond what we would expect among groups with 111.3 average. Just consider what an absurd portion of jews must have verbal iqs over 160.

Anonymous said...

"Jews are less than half as likely as the average to join the military,"

doesn't it depend on which military you're talking about...

RKU said...

It also shows that the commenter who said the Ashkenazi average is only 110 is wrong, given this sample of Jew would include non-Ashkenazi Jews plus the product of mixed marriages who identify as Jewish, and still has an average of 111.3.

Pretty funny...

First, "Bob" claimed that American Jews average IQ=115.

Then someone else claimed a more correct figure was IQ=110.

Now "Bob" cites a more detailed study indicating IQ=111 as proof that the other fellow's numbers were completely wrong.

I guess not all Jews are really that good at math...

Anonymous said...

Funny how so many Jews, like the neoconservatives, are so eager to see America go to war, yet so very few Jews sign up. It was like this in Vietnam. Whereas Jews are 2% of the U.S. population they comprised only two-fifths of one percent of U.S. casualties from that war. An under-representation by a factor of five.

l said...

I was in the Army back in the Eighties. There were 2 Jews in my company. Both were 'Jews for Jesus' types, so I'm guessing their dog tags would have ID'd them as some variety of Christian -- thus giving any researchers who might draw conclusions later the wrong impression re: their background. Not being particularly religious myself, my dog tags were stamped "no preference" -- thus giving no clue.

mark said...

All of these religion based stats could use some ethnic unpacking. We know that among Jews, for example, Ashkenazim far outnumber Sephardim. Catholics are particularly complicated as a religious group, from the standpoint of ethnicity, with possible significant impact on IQ. Obviously, Hispanics are almost certainly way overrepresented among Catholics (as compared to the overall population) in relation to "mainstream" Protestant groups (Mormons and some other than mainstream Protestant groups may be another story).

Among White Catholics, however, there are at least four large demographic groupings, with potentially different IQ profiles: Germans, Slavs (esp. Poles), Irish and Italians. There are other ethnicities among Catholics, of course, but these four are large blocs both among Catholics as well as within the overall US population.

mark said...

In fairness to neocons, when one of my sons was a teaching assistant at Rice he had as a student the son of a very prominent (as in, you've all heard the name) neocon, whose son was in ROTC. Obviously that had nothing to do with family financial resources. OK, so that's in fairness to at least one neocon.

stari_momak said...

Anybody catch the Frontline about the Financial meltdown and whistleblower -- no, way more, head of regulatory agency trying to do her job -- who called the financial crisis yet was shut up by the trio of Greenspan, Summers, and Rubin. Her name is Brooksley Born, and near as I can tell not Jewish (she was quite accomplished before the events detailed in the show, and there is a rule in America, if anybody in America becomes successful, and has Jewish roots, we'll find out about it.)

Actually it hits me that this Frontline thing has a good chance of being the dark matter (a Kaus-ism) driving the spike in posts about Jews.

MQ said...

I think the really crucial piece of iq data for understanding Jewish differences from other groups in their behavior with reference to other groups is not overall iq but their verbal iq.

This is absolutely true. A very common pattern for Jews is super high verbal IQ/mediocre spatial IQ. The overall average is not indicative of the pattern of intelligence among Jews or the social influence and impact of that high verbal IQ.

I personally think the Jewish pattern is from differential conversion over many years. After the sacking of Jerusalem and the exile of the Jews from Israel by the Romans, the religion basically became a floating rabbinical discussion group on talmudic interpretation. The kind of people who would stick with that community in the face of fierce discrimination were the types who loved words and legalistic interpretations.

Pat Shuff said...

repost--

Chris Brand, The g Factor, 1996, p. 112 (also 2000):

”[Work in Minnesota and Finland suggests DZ] twins’ different genes gradually establish more influence over their micro-environments. All these observations are compatible with the idea that genetic factors (epistasis and active G,ECOV as much as additive) are overwhelmingly important in determining late-middle-age levels of intelligence. Apparently, the longer the time span across which genes operate, especially via a person’s micro-environment, the greater is their effect on g. By contrast, the imposed environmental differences that are involved in different types of homes and styles of parenting seem to affect the children only in early childhood, and not beyond.”

Robert Plomin, MIT Technology Review, 2009:

”…. the genetic influence on IQ becomes more pronounced during development. In a study of 11,000 pairs of twins from four countries, we have recently shown that the heritability of IQ increases linearly from childhood (about 40 percent) to adolescence (about 55 percent) to young adulthood (about 65 percent). Why? No one knows, but my guess is that the answer involves what is called genotype-environment correlation: as children grow up, they increasingly select, modify, and even create their own experiences, partly on the basis of their genetic propensities. A child genetically inclined toward high verbal skills might choose to read more, enhancing those skills.”



The Nature of Intelligence
A look at the potential role of genes and IQ in Education

MIT Technology review

http://tinyurl.com/ykn6ytk

The emotionally and psychologically entangled who cling will continue to cling, wedded for rich or for poor, through sickness and in health until death do part. Meanwhile time and research marches on.

And hurl invective, if the recent Yglesias blog dustup is any indication.
Why is it the Turkish version of the proverb 'if about to speak the truth have one foot in the stirrup' has counterparts in many languages, cultures and countries expressing much the same but not in US/Britain/English language. Odd.

Noah said...

Funny how so many Jews, like the neoconservatives, are so eager to see America go to war

That's just not true...a large majority of Jews are anti-war. There's just a few prominent Jewish people (Bill Kristol, etc.) who are hawkish.

Anonymous said...

Steve, is the IQ 111 figure for Jews vis-a-vis the entire US/NLSY population or is it only in relation to white gentiles? If the former, you'd probably have to shave about 3 points off to render the score in Lynn's "Greenwich mean IQ" format.

Anonymous said...

You'd assume that a good proportion of the atheists are also Jews, no?

Anonymous said...

In other words, it's not clear what is being measured here. Are the Jews all "religious Jews"? That's somewhat implied. It indicates that they are a small subgroup of the ethnically Jewish population.

Or are they "ethnic Jews"? In which case it's not very meaningful to compare them to various relgious subsets.

Anonymous said...

A little off-topic, but "vibrancy" is spreading to the Bay Area, and, ah, certain folks are fleeing in its wake:

Calif. town rattled by alleged rape of girl, 15
By TERRY COLLINS, AP
google.com

RICHMOND, Calif. - The gang rape and beating of a 15-year-old girl on school grounds after her homecoming dance was horrific enough. But even more shocking, police say, was that up to two dozen people watched and did nothing to stop it.

The attack over the weekend rattled this crime-ridden city of 120,000 in the San Francisco Bay area, where one police official called it one of the most heinous crimes he has ever seen. Some students have already left the school in response to the attack.

"It's not safe there at all," said 16-year-old Jennie Steinberg, whose mother let her transfer out of the school Tuesday. "I'm not going back."

The victim, a sophomore, had left the dance and was drinking alcohol in a school courtyard with a group when she was attacked, police said.

Two suspects were in custody Monday, but police said as many as seven ranging in age from 15 to mid-20s attacked the girl for more than two hours at a dimly lit area near benches Saturday night. As many as two dozen people saw the rape without notifying police.

Officers found the girl semiconscious and naked from the waist down near a picnic table. She remains hospitalized with non-life threatening injuries.

"This was a barbaric act. I still cannot get my head around the fact that numerous people either watched, walked away or participated in her assault," Lt. Mark Gagan said Tuesday. "It's one of the most disturbing crimes in my 15 years as a police officer."

Gagan would not comment on rumors that observers took video of the attack on cell phones and may have posted it online.

Manuel Ortega, a 19-year-old former student, was arrested after trying to flee the scene. He is being held on $800,000 bail for investigation of rape and robbery. Attempts to reach Ortega at the jail Tuesday were unsuccessful.

A 15-year-old student also was booked late Monday on one count of sexual assault, Gagan said...

Fred said...

"Funny how so many Jews, like the neoconservatives, are so eager to see America go to war, yet so very few Jews sign up. It was like this in Vietnam."

Were most Jews eager to see America go to war in Vietnam? Most Jews were probably against the war.

"I was in the Army back in the Eighties. There were 2 Jews in my company. Both were 'Jews for Jesus' types, so I'm guessing their dog tags would have ID'd them as some variety of Christian -- thus giving any researchers who might draw conclusions later the wrong impression re: their background."

I had a similar thought. When I was in the Army, I had them put "Jewish" on my dog tags, but I can think of a couple of reasons why some other Jews might not self-identify as such in the military. I remember the first Sunday in basic training being pretty awkward when the drill sergeants were divvying up the whole company into Protestants and Catholics for church services. Until he got overruled, and let me and a handful of over Jews get to hang back at the barracks, a drill sergeant yelled at me, "you gotta pick one, son".

RKU said...

Funny how so many Jews, like the neoconservatives, are so eager to see America go to war, yet so very few Jews sign up. It was like this in Vietnam. Whereas Jews are 2% of the U.S. population they comprised only two-fifths of one percent of U.S. casualties from that war. An under-representation by a factor of five.

Actually, there's a pretty obvious relationship here...

Suppose lots of your friends and relatives serve in the military. Then you're a little careful about going to war, since some of them might be injured or killed, and all the ones in the National Guard will be heavily inconvenienced in their civilian lives.

But if virtually no one you know serves in the (American) military, there's much less of a problem.

Also, if lots of your friends and relatives live in Israel, which has universal service, you're obviously helping to protect them from danger and inconvenience by sending American troops off to fight all of Israel's real or potential enemies.

It's quite a lot like hiring foreign mercenaries to do your fighting for you, as the British did with the Gurkhas or the Hessians. And it's obviously even better if you don't actually have to pay them or their government any money.

Residual Error said...

Not being particularly religious myself, my dog tags were stamped "no preference" -- thus giving no clue.

Not sure about the regular Germqn military, but the SS introduced the ambiguous designation gottglaubig which seemed to cover most bases short of Commie-style atheism.

Anonymous said...

Yep- would make their neo conservatism a tad easier to swallow if they signed up and fought somewhat realtive to their population.....disturbing really....let's go to war, we've got no skin in the fight....although I do believe David Frum was an Green Beret.

josh said...

"Jews are less than half as likely... to join the military." Why should they? We'll gladly fight their wars for them! Aside:I heard a bit of Limbaugh today. Angry at Obamas lady-like handling of the Afghan debacle,he played a smidgen of some Ronnie Reagan speech from years ago. Ron was waxing wroth(ha ha-"jennings is waxing wroth":) ) ) about the USSR and how we aint gonna stand by and let all those people live in slavery etc. But I couldnt seem to recall when the great War Against The USSR took place! I mean it would be hard to miss,what with all the dead guys and wrecked buildings an stuff. I must confer with T99 on this! BTW when i was in the Marine Corps I came across 3 guys that I assume were jews. One was a total pr***,one was a Texas twangin' dude,and the last one I met at the rifle range,a New Yawker right out of central casting.He was a very funny guy with a face only a mother--and a jewish one at that--could love.Very loud and obnoxious and was very tight with some Jamaican guy.No,not gay,there was NO doubt this guyw as straight:he couldnt survive as a gay man with that face!! But a good guy.I think the Jews look down on the young who join the military. Better to go to Paris,than Parris Island!

Anonymous said...

Don't semites in general have a high verbal IQ? Just observing Arabs and other Mid/easterners communicate, there is a quickness and flow to the transaction.

Westerners seem stilted in comparison, with the possible exception of Italians.

alonzo portfolio said...

I wish someone in the know ('Saurus?) would speak to how misleading high SAT scores can be. I scored 1310 on the '74 SAT and I am triple dumb. Can't do any math beyond trig, can't understand a simple computer program, can't read blueprints, couldn't get accounting. On the plus side, I could still whup Obama in a game of one-on-one, and I'm white!

Furtive Desire said...

OTish but Britain's Channel 4 ran a programme the other night, Race and Intelligence: Science's Last Taboo. No suprises as to how it ended up but I'm guessing that your blog might be experiencing a small increase in readership from the Mother Country as inquiring minds want to know more.

It also prompted the following unfortunate piece from our old friend, Steve Jones, in the Torygraph of all places. Thankfully, he's taken to task/the cleaners in the comments section.

albertosaurus said...

Jews may very well not serve much in the army. I knew some Jews when I was in the army and even when I was in military school. Of course that was a different world (sixties). Today all army personnel are voluteers.

In the first scene of the Godfather we learn that the mafia didn't approve of military enlistment. They had enemies aplenty so they only fought each other - sort of like Raum Emmanuel(?).

As Thomas Sowell points out various ethnic groups are drawn to various occupations. Jews don't seem to be attracted to the army. I believe the Scots-Irish are.

I had a friend who was a carpenter. He used to say that Christ was the last Jew who was a carpenter.

albertosaurus said...

The real import of the Espiscopalians having high IQs is that - as you claim - it would be caused by environmental factors whereas Jewish brains - as claimed by Cochran and Harppending - are genetic.

Bob said...

RKU: I was only speaking of Ashkenazi as having IQs of 115.

Anthony: I do think jews tend to marry gentiles with lower IQs (though not a whole SD lower), but even if they marry those with equal IQs, the product of their marriage will regress to a lower mean than a product of two Ashkenazi. The mean will be around 107.5 rather than 115.

Anonymous said...

I have read that in WWI the percentage of Jews in the US Army was 5%. Could be wrong.

Middletown Girl said...

I'll bet most Episcopalians are liberal. Bummer.

Middletown Girl said...

"Funny how so many Jews, like the neoconservatives, are so eager to see America go to war, yet so very few Jews sign up. It was like this in Vietnam. Whereas Jews are 2% of the U.S. population they comprised only two-fifths of one percent of U.S. casualties from that war. An under-representation by a factor of five."

This doesn't bother me so much as the fact that Jewish representation in radical anti-American groups is much higher than in the most patriotic institution in America, namely the military. If Jews are 2% of the US population, their representation in the military is barely 2%. But, Jews once made up close to 50% of leadership roles in the communist party. SDS was largely Jewish. One of Moveon.org founders were Jewish. Many radical leftist rags like The Nation are funded by Jews.
When most Jews talk about patriotism, it is Zionism, not Americanism.

As for neocons, they found a clever way to use American patriotism to serve Zionist patriotism. Listen to talk radio--heavily neocon Jewish, btw--, and you'd think the most patriotic thing for an American is to love Israel and the Jewish community--though most Jews supported Obama!!

Middletown Girl said...

"Why do you think that people who marry Jews have lower IQs on average (as they will tend to mate from a selective part of Gentile society)?"

Is this true? There are probably two types who marry Jews. Those who share interests in arts, intellectualism, and politics or work in the higher professions. These gentiles are probably generally smart.
But, I'll bet a good number of Jewish men marry good looking shikses who aren't too bright. Bimbos go for rich men; rich men tend to be smart. So, it could be that a good number of rich Jewish men marry really hot bimbos. Male intelligence turns to goo when at the sight of a hot babe. Just last week I saw a wedding photo-shoot session at a park with a nebbish looking guy(presumably Jewish) who married the most gorgeous blonde broad I'd seen.
Of course, sensible Jewish men marry Jewish girls with decent enough looks and good brains and have smart kids... and enjoy shikse bimbos on the side(like Sydney Pollock in Woody Allen's Husbands and Wives.) Or, like Larry King, Saul Bellow, and Norman Mailer, they keep finding young fresh ones. The new Solomons.

Cordelia said...

OT: Newssift.com

For example: "IQ+Jews" search

or "Ethnic Diversity".

Anonymous said...

I went in the Army in March, 1965. Atheist/agnostic was not allowed. You were asked to chose a religion or "no preference". "No Preference" is what got stamped on my dog tags.

Baloo said...

It varies. I was in the Army 1968-71, and there were lots of Jewish troops in Army Language School when I attended it. For the most part, you had to score high on language aptitude to get in. Also, of course, it was during the draft, and they probably weren't in the Army by choice. I wonder if there are any other places in the military where you find a high concentration of Jews.

Anonymous said...

If you were a Jewish soldier headed for Iraq or Afghanistan, and you had an above-average IQ, would YOU want your dog tags to ID you as a Jew or as a gentile?

Do ya think that maybe the prospect of being selected as the first POW to be beheaded by the Taliban or al-Qaeda *just might* influence the choice of religion listed on dog tags?

Heck, if I was Jewish I'd pick "Moslem" on my dog tag just to frack with the heads of the enemy if they captured me. I'd tell my chaplain & CO I was actually not a Moslem, so the proper arrangements would be made if I died.

BTW, for some odd reason most GIs who enlist claim that they come from states that have no income tax, such as Texas or Florida. Funny coincidence, that ...

- Nemo

Anonymous said...

"The real import of the Espiscopalians having high IQs is that - as you claim - it would be caused by environmental factors whereas Jewish brains - as claimed by Cochran and Harppending - are genetic."

That's one of the silliest things I've seen written here. Why would it have to be environmental factors? Genetic factors are very plausible, except, it wouldn't be a Cochran and Harpending style natural selection process operating on a closed gene pool over a millenium, but a new gene pool formed by selective membership of highly talented elite individuals over the course of a few generations.

mark said...

Middletown Girl said...

I'll bet most Episcopalians are liberal. Bummer.

My father was a clinical psychologist. He always maintained that a distinction should be made between "smart" and "intelligence." He said that intelligence involves a number of personality related factors that go beyond mere smarts. This would go toward Middletown Girl's comments re leftism, Zionism, etc.

For example, I know a prominent Neocon who once told me (and this isn't unusual) that he/she supported Israel as a refuge of last resort for Jews. Aside from what this says about his/her attitude toward his/her fellow Americans, it hardly seems intelligent--if their fellow citizens suddenly ripped off their masks to reveal themselves as genocidal maniacs--for Jews to huddle in one small place and wait for the nukes to fall.

It's a delusional worldview, not susceptible to rational analysis. My acquaintance allowed that I had a point, but hasn't changed his/her views.

rec1man said...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3433726,00.html

150 American youths to join IDF

Highest number of Jewish American youths enlist in IDF this year with Israeli officials describing them as 'most enthusiastic'

About 70 percent of them have Israeli parents who immigrated to the United States, while the others come from Jewish American families.


For the first time, 16 religious American Jews will enlist in the IDF as part of this program.

rob said...

The real import of the Espiscopalians having high IQs...would be caused by environmental factors

No, dumb and loser Episcopalians took up speaking in tongues with Pentacostals. Smart people from the lower classes joined the Church. Rinse and repeat.

When bright people move to less primitive religions, they bring their genes with them. Genes that make people dumb trickle down. The exception is when a religion has a critical mass of dumbs, it becomes dumb. This will happen to the Anglican Church as Nigerians take over.

Fred said...

"But, I'll bet a good number of Jewish men marry good looking shikses who aren't too bright."

I'd bet the good looking "shiksas", more often than not, are of above-average intelligence. Mrs. Steven Spielberg, for example, seems to be fairly intelligent. So does Ivanka Trump, the new Mrs. Jarod Kushner. You go that route, and it probably doesn't dim the line much. Maybe your kids would be smarter if you married a female rocket scientist, but this way your kids are likely to have a nice balance of smarts and looks -- which in turn will help them marry someone smart and successful.

rec1man said...

Affirmative Action for jews

I submit that the 25% jewish admission rate in Ivy League is due to Affirmative Action in favor of jews

Jews are classified as white and have to compete against gentile whites and just need 1460 on SAT

whereas they dont have to compete against Asians ( Indians and Chinese ) who need 1600 on SAT

If Asians also had the 1460 SAT cut-off, they would easily take up most of the jewish slots in the Ivy League

Gene Berman said...

All you Jew-bashers are just jealous because Jews (and Israelis, particularly leaders) are so popular and prominent.

Why, just today, I was reminded of this by a road sign of a type you'll see throughout the U.S., comemmorating a past Israeli leader:

BEGIN DIVIDED HIGHWAY

Must really rankle, huh?

ben tillman said...

I think the really crucial piece of iq data for understanding Jewish differences from other groups in their behavior with reference to other groups is not overall iq but their verbal iq.

The crucial difference is their "groupness", their organization, their ability to marshal the resources of group members for the achievement of group goals.

Anonymous said...

yes the NLSY97 has the US mean at 100, and white mean at 103.

ben tillman said...

That's just not true...a large majority of Jews are anti-war. There's just a few prominent Jewish people (Bill Kristol, etc.) who are hawkish.

Not that it matters.

As the great Jewish scholar Salo Baron explained, orthodox Jewish ethics remains essentially national rather than individual, which results in the "otherwise incomprehensible legal theorem of the common responsibility of all Jews for the deeds of each."

M Stein said...

If anyone is looking for some easy debunking they may wish to visit this forum on richard dawkins forum (go to general science discussion section - registration pretty easy). I can't visit as I'm at work.

"Madmaili wrote:
Secondly saying IQ tests are a pretty good guide to your IQ is a tautology , it does not say anything one way or another on whether they actually measure intelligence.



Exactly. IQ tests measure how well one completes IQ tests, that's all....."

I was thinking of adding that there are a number of neurobiological characteristics that correlate with performance on tests.

www.loni.ucla.edu/~thompson/PDF/nrn0604-GrayThompson.pdf

http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/23695/

Also, see Plomin's recent twin study:

"My team, for example, has discovered that the genetic influence on IQ becomes more pronounced during development. In a study of 11,000 pairs of twins from four countries, we have recently shown that the heritability of IQ increases linearly from childhood (about 40 percent) to adolescence (about 55 percent) to young adulthood (about 65 percent)."

http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/23700/

TGGP said...

Regarding support for war, I collected some quotes from Randall Collins' book "Violence".

corvinus said...

All of these religion based stats could use some ethnic unpacking. We know that among Jews, for example, Ashkenazim far outnumber Sephardim. Catholics are particularly complicated as a religious group, from the standpoint of ethnicity, with possible significant impact on IQ. Obviously, Hispanics are almost certainly way overrepresented among Catholics (as compared to the overall population) in relation to "mainstream" Protestant groups (Mormons and some other than mainstream Protestant groups may be another story).

Among White Catholics, however, there are at least four large demographic groupings, with potentially different IQ profiles: Germans, Slavs (esp. Poles), Irish and Italians. There are other ethnicities among Catholics, of course, but these four are large blocs both among Catholics as well as within the overall US population.


Catholics are quite a "we'll take anybody" kind of religion (especially before the 1960s) and trying to pigeonhole Catholics as a whole would be as silly as trying to do, say, India.

I mean, there are the Hispanics, who, as we all know, aren't particularly bright. In the middle (IQ ~ 100) are the Italians and Slavs, with the Irish and Germans seemingly just above them (IQ ~ 102-105). But one must keep in mind the fact that there have been quite a few conversions to and from Catholicism. The very high-IQ Catholics are, I imagine, likely to be of Irish and German, but also in some cases with converted English (read: ex-Episcopalian) and Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry.

Richard Hoste said...

I submit that the 25% jewish admission rate in Ivy League is due to Affirmative Action in favor of jews

Jews are classified as white and have to compete against gentile whites and just need 1460 on SAT

whereas they dont have to compete against Asians ( Indians and Chinese ) who need 1600 on SAT

If Asians also had the 1460 SAT cut-off, they would easily take up most of the jewish slots in the Ivy League


I was always taught that Indians got classified as Caucasians, not Asians.

rec1man said...

Richard Hoste wrote

I was always taught that Indians got classified as Caucasians, not Asians.
--

After 1923, Thind case,
Indians were classified as caucasian but non-white
meaning the same Asiatic exclusion laws as Chinese

After 1980, they got classified as Asians
So Indians compete with Chinese for Ivy League

Anonymous said...

"yes the NLSY97 has the US mean at 100, and white mean at 103."

Ok, then we have to take the Jewish mean down to 108.3. Sorry Bob, your master race is looking less impressive. :-( If I recall correctly, you guys averaged around 109.5 or so according to Project Talent done in the 1960s, so maybe you are right and the goys are diluting your gene pool.

WASP-Harvard-Mafia said...

'Gene Berman' and 'Fred' are very fair debaters on the "JQ", both on this thread and in general, I must say.

Props to both of you gentlemen.

ATBOTL said...

Noah is right that most Jews are anti-war. Neoconservatives are the ethnocentric vanguard of American Jews. They view everything solely through the lens of "is it good for the Jews." Most Jews in American are mainstream liberals. They may be more ethnocentric than white Americans in general, but they aren't as obsessed about Jewish interests as the neocons are.

Svigor said...

That's just not true...a large majority of Jews are anti-war. There's just a few prominent Jewish people (Bill Kristol, etc.) who are hawkish.

Well, organized Jewry was pro Iraq Attaq II. Jews are smart, organized, attentive folks; if they wanted different representation, they'd have it in short order. I haven't paid as much attention to organized Jewry's stance on Attaq Iran, but from what I understand they're enthusiastic. As I said, Jews are nothing if not able to organize politically - are they mustering behind the anti-Attaq Iran banner? Or are they just answering polls?

(Also, IIRC, Jews were pro-Iraq Attaq II in the polls until well after the Attaq was under way)

general torpor said...

"I personally think the Jewish pattern is from differential conversion over many years. After the sacking of Jerusalem and the exile of the Jews from Israel by the Romans, the religion basically became a floating rabbinical discussion group on talmudic interpretation. The kind of people who would stick with that community in the face of fierce discrimination were the types who loved words and legalistic interpretations."

That's a very good point. They may have picked up more than a few converts among the gentiles hungering for intellectual stimulation of any kind, considering the environment likely to have obtained circa 500 AD in much of Europe. Outside of Ireland (Isle of Saints and Scholars) there was not much of a literacy movement and nothing much to read if you did learn.
Afer all, while the "Holy Roman Empire' was in its formative stages, religion selection was up in the air. The Russians supposedly chose Christianity over Islam because they could still drink. Perhaps apocryphal, but makes sense.
Of course women did not participate v. often in these discussion groups, but they were made to feel important because they transmitted the Jewishness.
So it worked for them.

Difference Maker said...

"@Bob,

Why do you think that people who marry Jews have lower IQs on average (as they will tend to mate from a selective part of Gentile society)?"

This is a good point. What kind of mixed marriages would continue identifying as Jew?

Now, I will admit my shocking ignorance of Jewry but will nevertheless deign to hypothesize a bit here. A Jew man who decides to leave the flock to get a Gentile lady is probably a high testosterone man able to get a quality, pretty woman. Would he want his kids identifying as Jew? With what baggage shall his hoped for master race descendants be saddled with?

Suppose it is just a Jew nerd with some woman. Then, they are probably both smart nerds and the IQ issue is moot.

If it is a Gentile man with a Jewess, frankly, I prefer blondes to semites, so this coupling is probably leaning less to the "master race" and more to nerdry and again the IQ issue is moot.

A bit of all nighter speculation. Not too delirious or tasteless, I hope. No offense intended! lololol

Difference Maker said...

I'm not gonna lie, I prefer my master race to be physically and mentally excellent, not just nerdy.

Concerned Netizen said...

"Funny how so many Jews, like the neoconservatives, are so eager to see America go to war, yet so very few Jews sign up. It was like this in Vietnam."

Hunh? Jews were against the war in Vietnam from the beginning of the anti-war movement. Can't pin that one on the Jews, although that won't stop assholes like you from tryiing.

Regarding wars in the Middle East, that's different, I concede. There, most Jews are still against US military involvement, but not by the usual overwhelming margin by which they usually oppose US wars.

Truth said...

One thing I don't understand about this "regression to the mean" thing:

Dr. Robert Jarvik, a heart surgeon, and inventor of the artificial heart married Marilyn vos Savant, the world's most intelligent woman; are we to believe that their kids have IQ's near 100?

Steve-O?

Svigor said...

http://www.vdare.com/taylor/071113_stumped.htm

corvinus said...

One thing I don't understand about this "regression to the mean" thing:

Dr. Robert Jarvik, a heart surgeon, and inventor of the artificial heart married Marilyn vos Savant, the world's most intelligent woman; are we to believe that their kids have IQ's near 100?

Steve-O?


I think I can help.

Regression to the mean occurs because their children will definitely be above average in IQ, but likely be closer to 100 than their parents. If these two people founded a hypothetical tribe, their IQ would not be 200 but possibly in the 120-130 range, assuming their descendants married non-tribe members with IQs roughly equal to their own.

So in summary, regression to the mean is the rule, but it does not happen all the way. If it did, there would not be any intelligence differences in human populations at all.

Anonymous said...

Regression to the mean is just complicated enough that most people in the HBD-sphere don't quite understand it.

See here:
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2009/10/version-20-of-montana-gretzky.php

http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2008/10/regression-to-mean.html

Anonymous said...

"Regarding wars in the Middle East, that's different, I concede. There, most Jews are still against US military involvement, but not by the usual overwhelming margin by which they usually oppose US wars."

And what about wars against European nations like Serbia? How do Jews feel about that?

Truth said...

Anonymous, nothing warms my heart more than a subtle, yet unmistakable dig at the intellect of one's peers.

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

I still don't see why people keep quoting and debating the full scale jewish iq score as if it were meaningful. Obviously those 111.4 scores are due to an avg performance iq of 100 and a viq in the 120 range. Jewish achievement, even in science and math, is largely attributable to their stratospheric (for an *average*) verbal reasoning abilities which their overall iq score masks.
Remember, the only test on the Wais that directly relates to numerical ability is measured on the viq scale (arithmetic). Also, viq involves subtests that require the ability to understand social behavior (comprehension), which surely helps them in business. And vocabulary and similarities seem to be very tied too deductive abstract reasoning that is useful in the highest level of science.
The avg viq of 120 explains almost all of jewish achievement. The full scale iq is next to meaningless for understanding jewish contributions (for the phil-semites and social effects (for the anti-semites).

Jack said...

"I mean, there are the Hispanics, who, as we all know, aren't particularly bright. In the middle (IQ ~ 100) are the Italians and Slavs, with the Irish and Germans seemingly just above them (IQ ~ 102-105)."

Is there evidence that Irish and Germans are smarter than Italians? The Irish I'm especially wary of.

Gene Berman said...

WASP-Harvard-Mafia:

Thanks for the compliment, though I'm not sure I've done anything more meritorious to deserve it than keep my foot out of my mouth.

I really don't even come close to qualifying as a contestant in "debates" because, truth to tell (no, not you--"TRUTH"), the Jew-bashers have me at distinct disadvantage in any such enterprise: it's clear they
know a helluva lot more than I about Jews and I credit them with arousing my curiosity to become more informed. Who knows--I might even become one of them myself, whether or not they'll have me (And I do understand that's a Jewish characteristic: intruding where your kind are not wanted.)

Sometimes a person as old as I am recognizes "bad faith" on seeing it (even trying to remember stupidity goes a long way toward such semblance) and I must resist an urge to swipe at "low-hanging fruit," and just let it pass, confident that, in such a forum, others will notice as well (and wince as their position is so ably compromised by one of their own). So, though I (for illustrative purposes only, I assure) note that RKU suggests comparing gross Jew population with Jew casualties and inquiring minds might wonder why a more direct comparison with Jew military population might not have been offered as a more "apples to apples" comparison (though not explanatory of some "point" he might want to make).

I grew up almost exclusively among gentiles of various sorts in different places; I'm sure there were Jews but not among my associates and barely among acquaintances. But when I visited grandparents in NYC, it was a different story--a different world, almost. Nothing but Jews--thousands and thousands of them, residents of a housing "project" called the Amalgamated (and, apparently, every single last one at least a socialist if not an outright communist). Now, what I'm going to say is anecdotal, but involves large numbers, which should make it more acceptable.

I visited often during holidays and vacations, often a weekend and sometimes as long as a month. During the entire WW II, I saw not a single able-bodied male of fighting age (except a lone retard and my uncle, a polio cripple). I could not say the same of any of several places where I lived thru those years nor even of downtown areas in those places nor even of NYC. In my own extended family (with above exception), every able-bodied man of whom I am aware served, beyond those living in that complex. I've served (draftee not wartime). My only son enlisted and served (CGM nuclear reactor operator) and is married to an admiral's daughter.

Enough personal experience, though there are other light-shedding incidents I could mention. My own guess is that most Jews are violence-averse (I know I am.) if not genetically, at least by upbringing and socialization: brawling is for the "goyim," so my relatives often said. (continued)

Gene Berman said...

(continued)

But I began "checking around" on the Web. I can't and won't cite--the sources are relatively easily found and I have no knowledge with which to argue their relative authority or reliability. It seems that Jews fight wars of their nations in disproportionate numbers--typically, at about twice their incidence in the population: with regularity, in the Revolution and successive wars involving the US (and like ratio both sides of the Civil War). In WWI, same deal, for and against the Kaiser. Hitler himself was recommended for promotion and promoted by a Jew and was both recommended for and decorated (Iron Cross) by a Jew. Somewhere, I read of his gripe that too many Jews had been awarded that decoration. When he ordered the dismissal of all Jews (under the Nurenburg laws, under which having a Jewish grandparent made one a Jew, regardless of religion)from the military grades above enlisted with exceptions only by his personally-signed waiver, he had to sign waivers for over 1500 general officers, in addition to being ignored by Adm. Doenitz, whose submarine service would've been disabled by compliance.

I don't think the military will ever be an attractive "career" for many Jews. Their "smarts" fit most for service as officers of one sort or another (and for some important specialties that may protect them from service at the front) but most would be "turned off" by the mind-numbing routine and the regular ass-kissing that it often takes to "get ahead"; I know I would--couldn't even take it in the corporate business world, where it's magnitudes less important.

But I should also point out, for those like Middletown Girl, who wonder in print why Jews don't show up as intellectuals leading the fight against socialism in the same way they've been so prominent in favor of it: you wouldn't notice it if it "hit you upside de head" because they DO: Jews from before the 20th century (Bohm-Bawerk. Mises, Rothbard, Hayek (not sure if a Jew or not)have made the anti-communist case eloquently and forcefully through all these marginalized years, yet till recently were virtually unknown and unheralded. It wasn't Jews that gave us the Pledge of Allegiance that the Founders had scorned as un-American trash but the socialist Bellamy (with the US Congress)--late 1800s--before many Jews had even arrived on these shores. The kikes were agitators, sure, but only in some industries; there were plenty of micks, spics, dagos, hunkies, and pollacks to "organize" the mines, trucking, factories,etc. Mark Twain actually took Jews to task for not trying to influence politics (said if the Irish had just the Jewish numbers in NYC, they'd rule the kingdom of heaven).

I learned a long time ago that some folks refuse to be pleased, no matter what. Fuck 'em, I say--and the horse(s) they rode in on.

That's my opinion an' I'm stickin' to it! (I acknowledge they're Dennis Miller's words but he don't say 'em any better'n I do.)

Gene Berman said...

First Anonymous:

I don't know and have never read Auster, though see his name mentioned with some regularity.

Why would he seethe with rage? I read Steve's article and see nothing about it that would upset anyone; it just about what one should expect and I can't imagine anyone sentient being surprised, much less "seething with rage."

Perhaps you forget the comparison of the overall curve of IQ distribution to the curve for IQ distribution of Jews: fully 50% of the latter are ABOVE whatever the mean is and, of the remaining 50% a "bunch" are right up under the top of the curve, even if they're on the left side of it. By the time you get down to the bulk of the populations' main section, you're probably talking about 10-15% of the Jews in the IQ range of
95 to 105, where I would guess the great majority of suitable recruits to lie. Now, we're talking about, maybe 1/8 or so of 2% (that's 1/4%) against something like 50% (in the 95-105 range) of, like 80% of the general population (including the 10% portion of blacks within the range)=40%. So, what we'd get is that there would be about 1 Jew among every 160 guys for whom the enlisted military would appeal as a career, or even as a "career move." That's 5/8 of 1%, or about twice what Steve's article cited. Either way, it's very small numbers and quite reasonable, when you reflect that some Jews would prefer not to identify if they can help it, what with Muslims and other assorted loonies running around with weapons and such, if you catch my drift, as I guess you do by now.

Sentry said...

My own guess is that most Jews are violence-averse (I know I am.) if not genetically, at least by upbringing and socialization: brawling is for the "goyim," so my relatives often said.

Thank you for subtly proving the point of those whom you are trying to argue against in your sloppily reasoned, anecdote ridden comments.

Svigor said...

And most people are averse to violence.

Svigor said...

Jews were against the war in Vietnam from the beginning of the anti-war movement. Can't pin that one on the Jews, although that won't stop assholes like you from tryiing.

Regarding wars in the Middle East, that's different, I concede. There, most Jews are still against US military involvement, but not by the usual overwhelming margin by which they usually oppose US wars.


As far as polls go, Jews weren't much less in favor of Iraq Attaq II than the general public. It was like 60-40 and 70-30, respectively, ballpark.

AFTER the war started, support for it amongst Jews in the polls dropped substantially.

But Organized Jewry was totally pro-Iraq-Attaq-II. I haven't paid as much attention to the drum-beating for Iran I, but AFAIK Organized Jewry's in favor of that one, too, whatever the polls say.