October 27, 2009

Episcopalians v. Jews on IQ

One commenter makes the point that on some tests of intelligence measures, Episcopalians outscore Jews.

The evidence is mixed.

Inductivist looked at the average scores on the ten word vocabulary test included in the General Social Survey and found:

Mean IQ for whites

Episcopalian 109.9
Jews 109.0
Lutheran 107.4
Mormon 105.7
Presbyterian 102.3
United Methodists 101.8
Southern Baptists 98.0
Assembly of God 94.5
Pentecostal 92.2

In the post-Civil War period, it was common for ambitious young men flocking to New York to make it big in business to convert to Episcopalianism. That way older business leaders who were Episcopalians could see you were in church every Sunday. A lot of the converts were coming from post-Puritan religions such as Congregationalism, or from Methodism. So, Episcopalianism became very upper class. That's why some upper crust boarding schools have Catholic-sounding names like "St. Paul's" -- Episcopalianism is Anglicanism (i.e., Church of England) which, due to Henry VIII, was Catholicism minus the pope and plus divorce.

Arthur Hu
has the 1990 average SAT scores by religion and by race. Note that scores averaged about 100 points lower than today before "recentering" in mid-1995. The two letter prefixes refer to race (Wh = white, AS = Asian, Al = All, etc.). In this, white Episcopalians barely outscored black Unitarians, and were 60 points behind Jews.

Race Religion             Number   Math + Verbal SAT
Wh Unitarian 1,745 1073
Wh Quaker 894 1037
Wh Judaism 25,600 1030 * Jewish Avg
Al Quaker 1,009 1029
As Hindu 4138 1029
Al Judaism 27,374 1026
As Presbyterian 3195 1022
As Angelican 197 1019
Al Hindu 4,741 1012
Wh Hindu 82 1004
As No Pref 17987 1001
As U Methodist 662 998
Wh Mennonite 952 990
As Unitarian 49 986
As Episcopal 444 983
Wh Chistian Sci 830 979
Wh No Pref 99,076 979
Al Mennonite 1,063 974
As Methodist 1108 973
As Quaker 25 973
Wh Mormon 6,400 972
Wh Episcopal 19,555 970
As S Baptist Conv 332 966
Af Unitarian 64 966 *Top Black
Al No Pref 137,305 963
Wh Luth Missouri 8,038 963
Wh Un Church of Christ 7,066 962
As Wesleyan 32 960
Al Luth Missouri 8,624 959
Al Episcopal 22,109 957* Episcopal
Wh Presbyterian 32,019 956
Wh Angelican 1,765 956
Al Chistian Sci 989 955
Al Presbyterian 37,353 955* Presbyterian
Al Un Church of Christ 7826 951
Wh U Methodist 23,470 949
Al Mormon 7,594 948
Wh Other 20,125 947
Wh Lutheran in Am 23,380 943
As Christn Reformed 298 943
Wh No Answer 44,397 942
Al U Methodist 26,037 939
Wh Afr Methodist 144 939
As Total 70739 938* Asian Avg
Wh S Baptist Conv 14,165 938
Al Lutheran in Am 25,020 937
Wh Total 688,933 934* White Avg
As Lutheran in Am 471 931
As Un Church of Christ 253 930
Al S Baptist Conv 15,729 929
As Judaism 218 925
Wh Christn Reformed 2,235 924
As Baptist 3003 924
As Islam 2184 923
I presume this isn't the complete list. It's probably missing about the bottom half of the scores if the 1990 White Average was 934 and the list peters out at merely 923.

And here's a 2002 report on high SAT scoring groups from Gene Expression:
Average SAT score by religion for 2002, average ~1000, about 40% of each students take it
Unitarian-Universalists 1209
Judaism 1161
Quakers 1153
Hinduism 1110
Mennonite 1097
Reformed Church of America 1097
Episcopal 1096
Evangelical Lutheran Church 1094
Presbyterian Church (USA) 1092
Baha'i 1073

As one reader pointed out, Midwestern-centered faiths get a boost from the ACT effect -- the closer you are to Iowa, home of the ACT, the less likely you are to take the SAT unless you are an ambitious sort who is thinking of going to college on the coasts. So, Iowa has just about the highest average SAT scores in the country because only top students in Iowa take the SAT.

And, no, I don't know where Catholics are in the 1990 list. Another one of Hu's Rules is that Catholics are usually average in everything.

My published articles are archived at iSteve.com -- Steve Sailer

112 comments:

Anonymous said...

There's also quite a few White Episcopalians in the South.

Much of the Southern aristocratic planter class was Episcopalian.

robert said...

Vance Packard's book The Status Seekers (1959) has useful stuff about (among other things) people converting to Episcopalianism for social reasons (often from other Protestant churches that had a blue-collar reputation).

Anonymous said...

The methodology doesn't really work because some of these really are ethnic and racial categories (Jewish and Quaker) while others (Universal-Unitarianism) are not. I'd imagine that within the more secular religions you'd find a greater mix of high-IQ people from different races whereas the more fundamentalist/traditional religions will be specific to one racial/ethnic group.

Anonymous said...

"...which, due to Henry VIII, was Catholicism minus the pope and plus divorce."

Steve, you just put in my mind the image of what southern Baptism would now be if its dogma could have been rewritten by Bill Clinton to suit his particular circumstances and inclinations.

Anonymous said...

Interesting.

So, when is the Quaker takeover of the government going to occur? This just demonstrates that the high levels of Jewish involvement in elite institutions are not attributable solely to IQ.

Anonymous said...

I guess a lot of the posters here will be converting to Episcopalianism to get that Jew-chip off their shoulder.

Anonymous said...

You could give a sense of nation as strong as Jews have to a million groups that would then come to rule to world within a few decades. If I waved a magic wand that would make everyone with a PhD in physics feel intensely tribal, atavistic unity they'd be cracking the whip over our heads by the Thanksgiving after next.

Country Boy said...

@www.iowamennonite.org :

"At Iowa Mennonite School a student can grow academically, socially, mentally, and above all, spiritually. ... Class averages over the past nine years have ranked at the 96th percentile nationally on the Iowa Tests of Educational Development (ITED) with the most frequent rankings at the 99th percentile[emphasis added]. Approximately 80-85 percent of IMS graduates receive post-high school education or training. And one will find the atmosphere at IMS conducive to learning, where the faculty strive to help each individual student."

Stellar class averages for a rural school in the middle of a cornfield.

These kids are the offspring of local farmers and small business owners in rural Iowa.

Healthy, well-adjusted, hard workers, good Christians from large families.

Their women aren't afraid of babies OR hard work and don't have urban neuroses.

OneSTDV said...

Unitarian-Universalist is basically a skewed sample of science minded atheists (or the children of these people). Unlike the other religions, U-U's choose the religion in adulthood and it generally caters to a high-IQ, pseudo-atheist crowd.

Anonymous said...

Where are the Catholics?

Chief Seattle said...

Growing up in Concord, MA, this doesn't surprise me a bit. The Unitarians are old-school New Englanders, very practical, hardworking, puritanical, and typically successful. And just as neurotic as the Jews in their own way.

anony-mouse said...

1/ There's no mention of Catholics on any of the lists.

You wouldn't be Catholic by any chance, would you Steve?

2/ Maybe old fat Henry understood HBD.

Feminists don't seem to agree with the noticion of HBD and if there's one thing Henry wasn't was a feminist.

Stopped Clock said...

Even if Episcopalians had the highest IQ's in the world, it wouldn't mean much, because they're also the most childless denomination of Christians in America and therefore the most rapidly disappearing. Baptists and Mormons are the future.

W Baker said...

As a white, Southern Episcopalian, I can tell you, Steve, et al. that post the 1972 Prayer Book controversy and the subsequent Establishment/PC bent of the Episcopal Church, you'll be able to ride this post for decades. Their numbers will continue to plummet. The Episcopal Church is absolutely corrupted with sinecures, bull dykes, and effete males. An old tiimer summed it up well last Sunday when he declared, our theology majors know more about climate change than Church history.

Loki said...

Why are Unitarians at the top of the lists? Do the IQ and SAT rankings relate to average earning?

Bob said...

SAT scores have some flaws to them if you want to rank ethnic groups this way.

An Ashkenazim with IQ of 95, for example, is probably more likely to take the test because of family expectations than a gentile, thereby depressing their scores.

One reason that Lutherans are so high is that they are concentrated in the ACT region of the country, so only the self-selected group of those who think it is worthwhile to go to college outside of the midwest will take the SAT.

n/a said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Uncle Peregrine said...

I think Episcopalians are bound to score well on the GSS vocabulary test since they would be almost exclusively native speakers of English or educated people from Commonwealth countries who received most of their education in English.

robert said...

I believe that Steve Sailer is, in fact, a member of the Catholic Church.

Re the notion of Unitarians being "as neurotic as Jews", is it true, BTW, that a disproportionately large number of Unitarians are Jews by origin? I have read this allegation but don't remember where.

Robert said...

What about the Four Square Church? Or Scientologists?

Anonymous said...

No Eastern Orthodox listed???

David Davenport said...

... religions such as Congregationalism, or from Methodism ...

You mean "denominations," not "religions," unless that word use is intended to be some sort of Papist slur at Protestants.

Also, Congregationalists were the Puritans in America:

COTTON MATHER (1663-1728)
Puritan, Congregational Minister and Author


On 17th August 1635, a ship from Bristol, England, arrived at Boston, Massachusetts carrying amongst its passengers a congregational minister from Liverpool. Richard Mather had been suspended from his ministry there for his non-conformity and, like many others at that time, had decided to cross the Atlantic to seek a new life. Richard, with his wife Catherine, settled in Dorchester where he became teacher of a newly planted church. In 1639 they had a son, Increase, who in 1662 married Maria, the daughter of John Cotton, another immigrant ... ....

Immigrants to America in the 17th century, yessir.

Their first child, Cotton, named after his maternal grandfather, was born on 12th February 1663. ...

... Cotton did not enjoy the best of health as a child and suffered from a speech impediment, but his education in the local free school and the guidance of his father led to him being sent to college at Harvard when he was just twelve. After three not particularly happy years he graduated in 1678 and returned home. ...

Cotton’s ambition was to follow his grandfather and father into the ministry of the church ...

Cotton Mather remained in the shadow of his father until 1688, when increased ( sic, the text should say, Cotton's father, Increase Mather ) traveled to England to represent the colony in negotiating a new charter for Massachusetts. Cotton took charge of the congregation at Boston, and also became involved in political events as the repercussions of the Glorious Revolution were felt in New England. When news was received of the landing of William of Orange, it was in Mather’s house that a revolution was planned against the governor, Andros, who had been imposed upon them by James II in 1686. The uprising was successful and Andros was confined and eventually sent back to England. Increase Mather returned in 1692 with a new charter and was received with great joy, whereupon Cotton slipped back into his shadow.

...

While his father was away, Cotton became involved in the witchcraft trials which have left a stain on his reputation.

... [H]is magnum opus was a survey of the work of Christ in New England in the seventeenth century entitled "Magnalia Christi Americana", recently republished, which is a source book of information about the Puritans and their influence in the colonies of the American eastern seaboard. Whilst not a straightforward chronological account, the work does nevertheless contain a history of the Puritan church and its influence ...


http://www.graceandtruth.org.uk/Articles/cotton_mather.htm

David Davenport said...

I guess a lot of the posters here will be converting to Episcopalianism to get that Jew-chip off their shoulder.

Actually, when Jewish persons in the US or Britain convert to a Protestant affiliation, they do most often choose the C. of E., or the Anglican church's skim-milk-diluted-with-water American branch, Episcopalianism.

It's been the most bon ton and high toned Protestant sect for a long time.

Michael said...

I thought Steve was of Jewish decent (he's adopted) but a practicing Catholic. You may want to clarify, Steve.

l said...

Unitarians are (generally) smart people who are desperate for others to acknowledge their being smart.

TGGP said...

So, when is the Quaker takeover of the government going to occur?
According to Mencius Moldbug, it already happened a long time ago. There's some grain of truth to that take on history, David Hackett Fischer thought they were the most influential of his four migrations when you look at modern America.

RKU said...

Well, I for one will welcome our new Unitarian/Quaker overlords. At least they won't start as many crazy wars...

There's actually a reason I started wondering about this whole topic long before I saw mention of the Episcopal/etc. IQ data.

Everyone knows that Jewish ability peaks in the verbal/symbolic manipulation category, which clearly explains why Jews so totally dominate journalism and the print media.

Except that when I happened to spend some time looking at old American magazines and journals from early in the Twentieth Century, I noticed something interesting.

First, the names of the authors were almost 90% Anglo-Saxon, which should naturally be expected, but still seems a little odd to someone living in today's world. Second, and somewhat unexpectedly, the quality of the writing and the thought behind it seemed considerably superior to that of the present day.

Obviously, this is just a subjective impression, and there are certainly complex sociological and cultural factors at work. But it still made me start wondering about a lot of things.

Another obvious difference was that the level of "shrieking hysteria" and "crazed lunacy" seemed pretty minimal compared to today's writings, in which most of the bylines are...not Anglo-Saxon.

John Wesley said...

"Even if Episcopalians had the highest IQ's in the world, it wouldn't mean much, because they're also the most childless denomination of Christians in America and therefore the most rapidly disappearing. Baptists and Mormons are the future."

No, this is 100% wrong. Baptists are beginning their decline and Mormons are stagnating.

Christians- the future of your faith is Pentencostal/Charismatic and its face is brown, black, and yellow.

The next Pope will probably be Hispanic, since the Pentecostal conversions are decimating the Catholics in South America. All European-legacy denominations are dead or dying, and actual church attendance in the US is well under 20%. In the Northeast, middle and west, it's well under 10% Not so in the rest of the world where it is growing exponentially.

The good news for you is that tens of millions of Christians are being created and most of the millions of Hispanics, Asians and Africans that will immigrate here in the coming years will be social conservatives who are antigay and antiabortion. The bad news for everyone is that most of these new Christians believe in Prosperity Gospel, which is the one factor- perhaps the main factor- of the housing crash Steve has somehow overlooked.

You can be sure that the government will continue to bring in hundreds of thousands of third world Christians into the US, many more so particularly with the rash of persecution stories we see in the media.

Pissed Off Chinaman said...

I think a lot of folks around here might not like this but....

I am an Episcopalian(convert). I have an IQ of like 152.

Prime said...

The Episcopal Church is absolutely corrupted with sinecures, bull dykes, and effete males. An old timer summed it up well last Sunday when he declared, our theology majors know more about climate change than Church history.

Very true, but they are still smart in the way that helps for vocabulary tests. It's sad that many traditional Episcopal churches have to organize around administration from Africa(!).

Fred said...

Steve,

This post suggests a topic for further study for you. Most of your posts on Jews here (like the recent one about Jewish liberals) don't seem to consider the impact that old school Protestant denominations such as the Episcopalians have had on America or on American Jews. Jews are a lightening rod for their progressive/liberal politics even though these politics are often quite similar to those of the New England WASPs.

One way to look at this might be to consider the roles of Jews in nominally Catholic countries that have significant Jewish minorities, e.g. France and Brazil.

Anonymous said...

One has to wonder what influence the religious culture has on IQ. Nature has a large effect, but there are still the effects of nurture, including the ideas you raise your children with and the social milieu they're surrounded by. Religion, of course, can be a big part of that.

BTW, my sense after after living in a Mormon community is that, among white Mormons, on average it's the smarter Mormons having the larger families. Many Mormons view large families as the ideal, but it's the wealthier ones who are most able to afford it. Of course that doesn't account for the fact the vast majority of Mormon converts, even in the US, are lower IQ minorities.

Another one of Hu's Rules is that Catholics are usually average in everything.

Anyone think that might be destined to change in the near future, for no particular reason?

is it true, BTW, that a disproportionately large number of Unitarians are Jews by origin?

Why would Jews wanna hang out with a bunch of goy atheists when they can go to the local temple and hang with Jewish atheists?

Bausch said...

Jews are a lightening rod for their progressive/liberal politics even though these politics are often quite similar to those of the New England WASPs.

This is a thesis advanced by Mencius Moldbug and others, but the Race / History / Evolution Notes blog has criticized it quite effectively.

See here and here.

Anonymous said...

"...which, due to Henry VIII, was Catholicism minus the pope and plus divorce."
umm quite untrue. The Anglican communion is in many ways closer to eastern orthodox then rome, and its not only an insult, but ignorant to imply that thomas kranmere and the other reformers were doing it out of political expediency.

I agree that the Episcopal church, and to some extent, the COE are destroying themselves - the most rapidly growing sector is the african church - which will probably tweak those iq scores somewhat

Fun side note the anglican church has what are probably the most innovative theologians living to day - john polkinghorne - a cambrdige physcists who became an anglican minister and a host of other scientist theologicans. not to mention n.t. wright who makes a damn good scholarly case for the resurrection.

In 100 years, after the anglican church has destroyed itself, people will wonder why the church and media ignored them and pushed things like multiculti.

Anonymous said...

pissed off Chinaman, i like it, if true. The anglican communion is actually more 'diverse' than perhaps even Roman Catholicism - the church is even growing in Egypt!

Anonymous said...

Another source of data is the NLSY (analyzed by Nyborg), which confirms a 1 IQ point advantage for Episcopalians over Jews: (http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2008/12/religion_iq.php ).

The more recent (2002) SAT data from ETS may not be so representative for white Episcopalians because there is a substantial minority of African Americans in the Episcopal Church. (Which I know from personal experience, having been raised an Episcopalian.) I couldn’t find the exact percentage on a quick google search, but I did find this:

• 87 percent of congregations are at least 60 percent white/European American and another five percent are predominantly African American or black.

Looking at Hu’s numbers from the 1990s, it appears that only 88.4% of Episcopalian SAT takers were white. Non-whites pulled down the Episcopal average by 13 points (which implies that the average score of non-white Episcopalians was 858). Black Episcopalians tend to be affluent and no doubt do much better on the SAT than blacks in general (the national black average in the early 90s was around 740), but they would still pull the white Episcopalian average down. My bet would be that non-whites (mostly blacks) as of 2002 were a bigger percentage than they were even as of the early 90s when Hu’s data were collected.

http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=90046

http://www.philosophy-religion.org/beliefs/pdfs/EPISCOPAL-STATISTICAL-TRENDS-MIRROR-NATIONAL-PATTE.pdf

Also note from the above links that the Episcopal Church is hemorrhaging membership. Basically the clergy is as left wing as the United Church of Christ and it has alienated many of its members. I haven’t been in years, for instance. More and more, all that’s left is SWPLers and minorities who aspire to be SWPLers.

Anonymous said...

¿Otra vez amigo, donde esta los Catolicos? Y tabien, donde esta la division entre los Catolicos y los Protestantes con una origen en Irlanda y Alemania.

Bausch said...

Also see this: The Myth of Old Money Liberalism.

Anonymous said...

Where are the Eastern Orthodox? And the Catholics? Not surprised at all by the success of the Unitarians. I'd also be interested in knowing the average IQ of the parishioners of "mega-churches", although they are not exactly a denomination, more like a "phenomenon". I'm guessing they closely resemble Southern Baptists, maybe even lower.

We should also get the international numbers on some of the same denominations(Baptists, Lutherans, Anglicans/Episcopalians, Unitarians, Quakers) from Canada, the U.K, Australia, New Zealand, etc...

Outside of Christianity, I would love to know the IQs of Jain Indians, Parsi Indians, and Sikh Indians compared to Hindu Indians. It would also be fascinating to get the average IQ of Alawites in Syria(the Alawites, who are often described as not even being Muslim control the country and the economy, and the ruling family which controls the Syrian Baath party are all Alawites), and maybe even the strange Druze religion in Israel and Lebanon. Back to Christianity - let's have a look at the the IQs of Christian Iraqis(Assyrian and Chaldean Christians), compare the Lebanese Christian IQ with the Lebanese Muslim IQ, and do the same thing with Egyptian Coptic Christians and Muslims.

I'm rarely surprised by these IQ studies of different religions and ethnic groups, but they are still fun and intriguing.


- Atheist descended from Unitarians and Eastern Orthodox Christians.

Noah said...

Maybe - gasp - Jews aren't some special race with super powers, but simply just another small religious minority comprised mostly of white folks...

rec1man said...

Anon wrote
---
Outside of Christianity, I would love to know the IQs of Jain Indians, Parsi Indians, and Sikh Indians compared to Hindu Indians.
--

Jain and Parsi Indians have IQ in the brahmin range
Jains have outcompeted the jews in the diamond trade in Antwerp

Jat Sikhs IMHO have an IQ around 92, blue collar, high school pass, infantrymen, large farmers
This is corroborated by their performance in Vancouver and UK and Yuba City

Hindu IQ varies with caste
In 1997, Lynn did a study in UK, with long term resident Indian children ( mostly Patels and Jat Sikhs ) and came up with 96 IQ
But again Patels and Jat sikhs are higher end peasant castes only
Gujurati Patels and Jat Sikhs make up about 40% of the US Indian diaspora and do drag down the overall Indian IQ

As per the SAT scores, including the dragdown effects of Jat Sikhs and Gujurati Patels, American Hindus score very near the Jewish levels both in 1990 and in 2002
Interestingly the 1990 SAT scores had a separate score for white Hindu converts, who also scored very near the Asian Hindus

1990 SAT
Jews = 1030
Asian Hindus = 1029

2002 SAT
Jews = 1150
Asian Hindus = 1110

Anonymous said...

Maybe - gasp - Jews aren't some special race with super powers, but simply just another small religious minority comprised mostly of white folks...

Yeah, and maybe they don't engage in self-deception, ever.

eh said...

How about Lutherans? As we know, in Lake Wobegon all the children are above average. So the question is, how far above average?

Melykin said...

Their are 82 white Hindus?? I didn't know there were white Hindus. I thought you had to be born into certain castes to be Hindu.

Some more conservative Anglicans have joined Eastern Orthodox churches. My sister did this, and there are quite a few disaffected Anglicans at her church, including an old Chinese guy who used to be an Anglican priest.

James Kabala said...

Actually, the Church of England held out against divorce well into the twentieth century, almost as tenaciously as the Catholics (cf. the difficulties of Edward VIII). Henry technically wanted not a divorce, but an annulment.

Someone should make mention of an old joke that I first read in a book by David Frum, of all people (long ago, pre-axis-of-evil): "An Episcopalian is a Presbyterian with a trust fund, a Presbyterian is a Methodist with a college education, and a Methodist is a Baptist with shoes."

headache said...

Episcopalianism is Anglicanism (i.e., Church of England) which, due to Henry VIII, was Catholicism minus the pope and plus divorce.


And nowadays plus multiculturalism.

Anonymous said...

Unitarians are not exactly spread thin throughout the US:
they are basically socially aware, high-status whites from one place:
the Boston area - i.e., the big throbbing brain of North Ameirca, and a place where having a PHD is about as special as having your own car.

My last visit to a UNI service in N Mass looked like a blonde (and blue eyed) only church gathering, and everyone drove away in Volvos & BMWs with their plentiful children.

Interesting...

ATBOTL said...

The role of Jews in France has been the same as in the USA and every other white country: they have been a force for subversion and race replacement. Recently, French Jews have formed a kind of neoconservative type movement that seeks to take French anger over race replacement and redirect it away from promoting the ethnic interests of the French people and towards promoting Jewish/Israeli interests. That's the agenda of the Sarkozy regime.

meep said...

I find it amusing that an extremely large religious group does not show up on this list, but eensy-teensy groups like the Quakers do.

What would be =really= interesting to see is not just mean or median scores, but the standard deviation. It would be really interesting to see which groups have the highest standard deviation.

I wouldn't be the least surprised if Catholics might have around average median scores, but markedly higher standard deviations than other groups.

[disclosure - I am Catholic, of the Irish/Scottish extraction. I am in NY, so my parishes have always been pretty ethnically diverse, from the priests to the parishioners.]

meep said...

Oh, and as another commenter pointed out - no Orthodox Christians, either. I bet that group is larger than the Quakers.

Bruce said...

"In the post-Civil War period, it was common for ambitious young men.......So, Episcopalianism became very upper class. That's why some upper crust boarding schools have Catholic-sounding names like "St. Paul's"

Non sequitur, Steve.

Not a Pissed Off Chinaman said...

"I have an IQ of like 152."

Uh. Posting your claimed IQ on an Internet forum is extraordinarily douchey.

There's a lot of dbags on this blog.

Bruce said...

"That's why some upper crust boarding schools have Catholic-sounding names like "St. Paul's" -- Episcopalianism is Anglicanism (i.e., Church of England) which, due to Henry VIII, was Catholicism minus the pope and plus divorce."

Wrong.

Henry Tudor was actually quite Romish in his beliefs, his rebellion against the incursions of the papacy notwithstanding.The Anglican Church took shape as Catholicism for the English-speaking people (minus the various medieval Roman additions) under Elizabeth ("good queen Bess")and theologians such as Richard Hooker and Lancelot Andrews. Divorce was never legitimate in Anglicanism.

And the English reformation began earlier, perhaps with Wycliffe. For his efforts, the Romans dug up his bones and burned them.

Viking said...

There's a bit more to Episcopalianism/ Anglicanism that you describe Steve. A few Theological issues too!

James said...

Tables like these are almost meaningless because of differential selection among the groups. You can't tell which group is actually smarter, or just more highly selected before taking the test.

Also, a 10-word vocabulary test is a horrible measure of IQ.

Anonymous said...

"I find it amusing that an extremely large religious group does not show up on this list, but eensy-teensy groups like the Quakers do."

There's a simple reason why Catholics and other large religious groups don't appear on the ETS' 2002 list: The press release only listed the top 10 scoring groups. So if you don't see your group listed, they weren't in the top 10 highest scoring groups.

Acilius said...

@anonymous #2: "these really are ethnic and racial categories (Jewish and Quaker)" Quakers aren't an ethnic category in most of the world, but there is one place where they almost are such a category. That place is western Kenya, where at least 1/3 of the world's Quakers live. Over 98% of Kenyan Quakers are members of the Luhya people, so a Kenyan identifying as Quaker is identifying as Luhya. But the Quakers are a small minority even among the Luhya, numbering no more than 150,000 out of more than 5 million Luhya in Kenya. And of course Quakerism as a movement started in England, and few Quakers outside Africa show many signs of Luhya influence.

BTW, the Luhya are not related to Mr Obama's kinsmen, the Luo. The names are just similar. The Luhya are a Bantu group, the Luos Nilotic.

JudgeStone said...

Of course, since Episcopalians vastly outnumber Jews and score comparably high on examinations, their representation in elite professions should be comparable (in relative terms). That this isn't the case evinces that there is something else going on. That something is almost certainly mass nepotism that ensues when Jews begin to dominate an industry and only open it to non-Jews when there are no Jewish options left.

Of course, there are other, more benign things going on as well, such as Episcopals being in general satisfied with less status-heavy professions and less interested in pursuing the arts and media. But the numbers are totally skewed far beyond anything this could explain, and much of the Jewish interest in status-heavy professions is because their greater access to them makes them more practical.

Anonymous said...

Jews are a lightening rod for their progressive/liberal politics even though these politics are often quite similar to those of the New England WASPs.

Fred, was pre-Revolutionary Russia filled with New England WASPs?

Anonymous said...

Pissed off Chinaman said: "I am an Episcopalian(convert). I have an IQ of like 152."

That would qualify you for the Triple Nine Society. I highly recommend it. Here's a list of qualifying scores. Old SAT, GRE, etc. are accepted, as are regular IQ tests.

The society has about 1,000 members. There is a very busy discussion list, regular IRC chats and even face-to-face meetings. Lots of interesting people.

l said...

What to Expect If you go to a Unitarian-Universalist church (found on da web):



"Discussion" (the previous Sunday's discussion resumed)

Announcements (requires at least 20 minutes)

Blaming Fundamentalists and Republicans

Bragging about one's education level

Blaming one's disappointments in life on society's prejudice against intellectuals

"Discussion"

Meditation (snoring is permitted - all forms of worship are welcome)

"Joys and Concerns" - a time during the service to stand up and talk about whatever's on your mind, no matter how little anyone else might care. You have the floor. Take advantage of it. During this time, it is acceptable to perform an interpretive dance to more deeply convey your feelings. Also, a time to make more announcements and discuss the reigning controversy of the moment in the congregation.

The actual sermon (if there is any time left)

"Discussion"

Coffee hour (at least as long as the service)

More "Discussion"

Pissed Off Chinaman said...

To the Anonymous who responded to my previous post,

Well as I mentioned, I am an Episcopalian convert.

Growing up, I was forced to attend an ethnically Chinese non-denominational Christian church. I assume most of you are not familiar with such churches so I will briefly describe them. While not very political, these places are very fundamentalist/literal in their theology and the clergy are trained by the finest religions minds in the American Bible Belt (sarcasm). Unlike most of my contemporaries I loved reading about history and consequently had exposure to more secular views of the Bible. When I would bring up contradictions in the text, the church staff gave me the dumbest responses.

Long story short, as soon as I got to college (i.e. away from my parents) I pretty much stopped being religious because I associated it with superstition and stupidity. Besides, I liked sleeping in on Sundays. In any case a good friend of mine and I would have bull sessions about religion and how I felt it was useless. My friend was raised an Episcopalian and laughed at my cynicism and told me that he never attended a church like that since Episcopalians did not take the Bible literally. I responded disbelievingly, "I gotta see this for myself" and I went with the guy to the church near campus. I actually enjoyed the service and I went back weekly (at first just to listen to the music).

And that is how POC got his religion back. See I like the Episcopal church precisely because it's shaken off the more stupid traditions and adapted to the modern world. As an individual with liberal leanings I also appreciate the focus on the social gospel aspects of the religion.

jody said...

from my experiences with mormons in nevada and utah, i had previously written to steve that i thought their average IQ was slightly higher than normal. i don't know if this study counts as good evidence, but it at least corroborates my anecdotal evidence.

mormons were economically taking over the east side of las vegas, ran many businesses in the city, were wealthier than average, and had lots of kids.

it may be that the more money they have, the more kids they can afford to have. so the smarter they are, the more children they produce. a eugenic effect, in contrast to the severely dysgenic effect of IQ among most other europeans in the US.

Dutch Boy said...

"For the majority of English people there are only two religions, Roman Catholic, which is wrong, and the rest, which don't matter."

-Duff Cooper (1890-1954),
Old Men Forget

Wanderer said...

Episcopalianism is NOT "Catholicism without the Pope"!!

Let's walk through this:
1.) Episcopalianism derives ultimately from the Church of England.
2.) The English Church has been a in a state of low-level cultural civil war ever since the time of Wyclif and the protestant Lollards (more than a few of the latter were put to death by the Vatican's agents for their 'subversive' populist and nationalist preaching).
3.) That civil war has always been based around the struggle over what the nature of the English Church "is" (defacto, what its future will be).
4.) There has always been the "Papist with no Pope" (or with it, before the 1530s) element of the English Church, and that element still exists today. It is this group that always flails its arms demanding that the world view the English Church as "Catholic without the Pope". They have had some success towards this end convincing people of this, especially lately.
5.) There has likewise always been a strong element of ideologically, culturally, and politically Protestant men at the helm of the English Church, fiercely opposing RomanCatholicism. Many of the more populist and radical elements of this camp broke off and formed new protestant groupings every now and then. (The term 'puritan' originally referred to the desire to purify the English Church of lingering Roman influence).
6.) The Protestant camp has almost always been significantly stronger in this ongoing civil war over the fate of the English Church. Example: One will almost not find a more stridently protestant, anti-papal official-church document in the English language than the "39 Articles of the Anglican Faith", drawn up in the mid-late 1500s and theoretically still in effect.
7.) If there is any doubt whatsoever about which side -- "Catholic without the pope" or "Solidly Protestant" -- gained ascendancy in the USA: the U.S. Episcopal churches often used the full name "Protestant Episcopal Church".
8.) [tangential] The English Church of today has declined so badly and degenerated into such pathetic multiculturalist irrelevance, that I can only assume the most patriotic and nationalist (protestant) elements of the English Church, over these past 700 years--the men who fought hard to keep Roman influence out of Britain--would have no problem with it falling back into Roman control today. Better to just tear off the mask; the English Church is no longer English, but universalist. Why not just rejoin the ranks of the "universal" Papal Church? Surely, if and when a revival occurs, it won't be through the English Church as it is currently constituted, so why keep up illusions.

Anonymous said...

"At Iowa Mennonite School a student can grow academically, socially, mentally, and above all, spiritually. ... Class averages over the past nine years have ranked at the 96th percentile nationally on the Iowa Tests of Educational Development (ITED) with the most frequent rankings at the 99th percentile[emphasis added]."


By Jove, I think our Country Boy has just unearthed the bias in Iowa Tests! It is Iowa itself.

Obviously Iowans are no smarter than any other, but they write the tests and there is a conspiracy among the reclusive Mennonites to pass the kids the answers in secret mennonite code!

Charge your cell phone, Boy, a New York Times reporter will be calling shortly to get the dirt on the farm kids and their enablers.

John Wesley said...

The overwhelming majority of the Anglican Church- including nearly all of its active members- are in the developing world. The Anglican Communion is more aptly called the African Communion. Which is why breakway Episcopal parishes in the US are now controlled by African bishops.

The overwhelming majority of practicing Catholics in the USA are Hispanic. The highest concentration of non-Hispanic Catholics is in the Northeast, which is also the most irreligious part of the country now.

The largest growing areas for Christianity are in the Third World. Many of these countries are now sending missionaries to America. Europe is no longer Christian in any appreciable manner.

Within ten years the Anglican, Catholic, Methodist and Presbyterian churches will be almost exclusively non-white. But the overwhelming majority of Christians will be Pentecostal.

The future of Christianity is a Third World, nonwhite religion. The sooner white Americans get used to that fact the better off they will be.

rec1man said...

Melykin said

Their are 82 white Hindus?? I didn't know there were white Hindus. I thought you had to be born into certain castes to be Hindu.
--

There is a 1 hour Hindu ceremony called Shuddi, by which anyone can become a Hindu
It involves changing your name to a sanskritic name and becoming vegetarian

To be a member of a caste, you have to be born into a caste or in some rare cases, be accepted by a caste and marry into a caste and defacto become a member of the caste

Most white Hindus are followers of ISKCON and other new age gurus

But just like Judaism, Hinduism does not actively seek converts

Anonymous said...

This is a thesis advanced by Mencius Moldbug and others, but the Race / History / Evolution Notes blog has criticized it quite effectively.

Only if you regard incoherent muttering about the Sinister Motives of der Jude Mencius as "effective criticism".

Well, I for one will welcome our new Unitarian/Quaker overlords. At least they won't start as many crazy wars..

Ha! US participation in WW1 and WW2 were progressive Unitarian efforts through and through.

Nice Try said...

Only if you regard incoherent muttering about the Sinister Motives of der Jude Mencius as "effective criticism".

Only if you don't read or just completely ignore those Race/History/Evolution Notes posts debunking some of Mencius Moldbug's most outlandish claims would you caricature the posts as consisting solely of anti-Semitic, "incoherent mutterings."

He provides Wikipedia links to fact-check the claims. Is Wikipedia anti-Semitic too?

RKU said...

Growing up, I was forced to attend an ethnically Chinese non-denominational Christian church...While not very political, these places are very fundamentalist/literal in their theology and the clergy are trained by the finest religions minds in the American Bible Belt (sarcasm)...When I would bring up contradictions in the text, the church staff gave me the dumbest responses.

Pretty interesting, P.O.C. I'll admit that my own deep-seated racial bias meant I'd never imagined that Chinese or other Asian religious fundis were as ignorant and dumb as the white ones. And it's always helpful to have one's hidden biases corrected.

Presumably they must all be very enthusiastic about Mike "Young Earth" Huckabee and Sarah "I Can See Russia from My Window" Palin...

ben tillman said...

Another one of Hu's Rules is that Catholics are usually average in everything.

If you know what "catholic" means, this rule is pretty obvious.

ben tillman said...

Jews are a lightening rod for their progressive/liberal politics even though these politics are often quite similar to those of the New England WASPs.

How does the compound conjunction "even though" find its way into this sentence? Is there any reason to think that Jews are not the cause of the "progressive/liberal politics" of these "New England WASPs"? Has anyone here read Adam Sutcliffe's book "Judaism and Enlightenment"?

Anonymous said...

"But just like Judaism, Hinduism does not actively seek converts"

Thank 'G-d'.

ben tillman said...

Henry Tudor was actually quite Romish in his beliefs, his rebellion against the incursions of the papacy notwithstanding....

And the English reformation began earlier, perhaps with Wycliffe. For his efforts, the Romans dug up his bones and burned them.


Very good, Bruce. One of my most surprising Match.com matches was a TCU professor with a Ph.D from Oxford who specialized in the Lollards.

Pissed Off Chinaman said...

NPOC,

Look I only pointed out my IQ and my religious affiation because it was related to the topic of this thread. Tis all.

RKU,

I don't think most fundies are stupid per se. They're just stupid and illogical when it comes to religion. Gullible would be a better word and like I said, most Asian churches are not political. At least the Chinese ones are not as fanatical as the Korean ones though.

Incidentally, I've been to some black church services. Because many of them also come from a Southern pentecostal tradition, these places seem to be infected with the same idiocy.

Fred said...

"Is there any reason to think that Jews are not the cause of the "progressive/liberal politics" of these "New England WASPs"?"

One reason would be that New England WASPs were advocating for blacks in the abolition movement in the early and mid 19th century when Jews were far fewer in number in the U.S. and far less influential.

Another reason would be that New England WASPs generally seem to have their own, strongly-held opinions and don't seem to take cues from Jews (or anyone else) as a matter of course.

Anonymous said...

Very good, Bruce. One of my most surprising Match.com matches was a TCU professor with a Ph.D from Oxford who specialized in the Lollards.

Anybody else shocked that an iSteve reader has to resort to online dating sites?

Fred said...

"Anybody else shocked that an iSteve reader has to resort to online dating sites?"

Given the ubiquity of online dating in recent years, and the enormous size of the memberships of sites like Match.com, "resort" is an odd choice of words. It's becoming the default way to find a mate.

Bruce said...

Wanderer,
"2.) The English Church has been a in a state of low-level cultural civil war...."
Correct. There's always been low-church elements.
"3.) That civil war has always been based around the struggle over what the nature of the English Church "is"
Not surprising since it's the national church of England. There was always a lot at stake.
"6.) The Protestant camp has almost always been significantly stronger in this ongoing civil war over the fate of the English Church. Example: One will almost not find a more stridently protestant, anti-papal official-church document in the English language than the "39 Articles of the Anglican Faith", drawn up in the mid-late 1500s and theoretically still in effect."
The 39 articles are both thoroughly Protestant (yes, there was much to protest in medieval Roman-ism) and Catholic (as in what was understood by the early Church Fathers of antiquity minus the medieval Roman additions). Protestant and Catholic are not contradictions. The 39 articles address the errors of the continental reformation and radical reformation as much (or more) as they do the Roman errors so you could say they are just as anti-Protestant. They are "in effect" but never had confessional status (wouldn't be Catholic) in the same way that, say, Augsburg or Westminster did.
"7.) If there is any doubt whatsoever about which side -- "Catholic without the pope" or "Solidly Protestant" -- gained ascendancy in the USA: the U.S. Episcopal churches often used the full name "Protestant Episcopal Church".
After the American Revolution, the English bishops didn't want to ordain ours (if we were Catholic, we wouldn't have needed a Bishop's ordination/laying on of hands, etc.). So the Scottish bishops ordained our bishops. The Anglican Church in Scotland was called the "Protestant Episcopal Church in Scotland" to differentiate it from the Presbyterian Church in Scotland, which was the most common church in Scotland. So we called the Anglican Church in the U.S. the "Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States."
The Book of Common Prayer is, and always was, a very thoroughly Catholic book so I don't believe for a second that the non-Catholic types ever achieved ascendency in the Church of England. At least not till the 1970's.
Luckily Anglicanism doesn't require a Pope. So some of us continue (and have since the 1970's) outside the official Anglican Communion. http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/

Dutch Boy said...

Dear Fred: I met my wife the old-fashioned way: in a bar!

Bruce said...

Wanderer,
"2.) The English Church has been a in a state of low-level cultural civil war...."
Correct. There's always been low-church elements.
"3.) That civil war has always been based around the struggle over what the nature of the English Church "is"
Not surprising since it's the national church of England. There was always a lot at stake.
"6.) The Protestant camp has almost always been significantly stronger in this ongoing civil war over the fate of the English Church. Example: One will almost not find a more stridently protestant, anti-papal official-church document in the English language than the "39 Articles of the Anglican Faith", drawn up in the mid-late 1500s and theoretically still in effect."
The 39 articles are both thoroughly Protestant (yes, there was much to protest in medieval Roman-ism) and Catholic (as in what was understood by the early Church Fathers of antiquity minus the medieval Roman additions). Protestant and Catholic are not contradictions. The 39 articles address the errors of the continental reformation and radical reformation as much (or more) as they do the Roman errors so you could say they are just as anti-Protestant. They are "in effect" but never had confessional status (wouldn't be Catholic) in the same way that, say, Augsburg or Westminster did.
"7.) If there is any doubt whatsoever about which side -- "Catholic without the pope" or "Solidly Protestant" -- gained ascendancy in the USA: the U.S. Episcopal churches often used the full name "Protestant Episcopal Church".
When we whipped Cornwallis, the English bishops didn't want to ordain ours (if we were Catholic, we wouldn't have needed a Bishop's ordination/laying on of hands, etc.). So the Scottish bishops ordained our bishops. The Anglican Church in Scotland was called the "Protestant Episcopal Church in Scotland" to differentiate it from the Presbyterian Church in Scotland, which was the most common church in Scotland. So we called the Anglican Church in the U.S. the "Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States."
The Book of Common Prayer is, and always was, a very thoroughly Catholic book so I don't believe for a second that the non-Catholic types ever achieved ascendency in the Church of England. At least not till the 1970's.

Svigor said...

My friend was raised an Episcopalian and laughed at my cynicism and told me that he never attended a church like that since Episcopalians did not take the Bible literally.

More or less true, in a nutshell. If you have a high IQ group, they're going to have to be a bit more agile and flexible with scripture than fundamentalism allows.

On the other hand, I remember being one of the few actual apologists on all our youth outings, with most being only nominally Christian - atheists really. I generally knew I was being a Devil's advocate, if you can wrap your head around that one, but I liked arguing.

Svigor said...

I don't think most fundies are stupid per se. They're just stupid and illogical when it comes to religion. Gullible would be a better word

Backhandedness aside, I obviously disagree; I think fundamentalism is stupider than flexible interpretation, per se.

Truth said...

"I don't think most fundies are stupid per se. They're just stupid and illogical when it comes to religion."

One could make a strong case that anyone, Episcopal, Christian, Methodist, et cetera, who believes in the tenants of "Christianity" is "stupid and illogical," couldn't it?

For example, both Southern Baptists and Methodists both believe in people looking over their shoulders and turning into pillars of salt, do they not (I'm asking, I don't know)?

I'm not a Christian, but from my limited knowledge of the faith, the different sects of Protestantism have much more in common than the do that divides them. This can also probably be said for Protestantism vis-a-vis Catholicism.

Strangely enough though, I went to a Greek Orthodox church by my house the other day (for those of you who don't know G.O. is the third leg of the Christian triangle) and I was shocked by just how, well, backward it seemed. Compared to a G.O. temple, a Catholic church looks like a set from Star Trek. I get the feeling that they could have lifted the Orthodox temple from my southwestern city and transported it back to Constantinople in 1453 and no one would have batted an eye.

Interestingly, however, I also got the feeling that I was an a "religious" establishment. A feeling I get occasionally in a Catholic church and never in a Protestant one.

One gets the feeling however that if G.O had become the dominant sect of Christianity, the world would have been frozen in about 1600 AD. (Catholicism, maybe 1850).

Anonymous said...

Where are the ultra-white ultra-Western neo-pagans?

Pissed Off Chinaman said...

Truth,

I'm not sure about the church in general but I tend to think of the Old Testament as a book of Jewish Fairy Tales and Parables, particularly the more magical stuff.

Episcopal services generally tend to focus on the gospels, the Psalms and some of the Old Testament prophecies more relevant to the coming of Christ.

As far as the actual tenets (i.e. the principles outlined by Jesus) I consider them neither stupid or illogical.

Do unto others as you would have then do unto you, look out for the least among you, blessed are the poor and the meek (in a spiritual sense)...etc. Those are the principles I try to live by in my life as best as I can.

Anonymous said...

"Truth"

I'm not a Christian



Nation of Islam?

Anonymous said...

One reason that Lutherans are so high is that they are concentrated in the ACT region of the country,
do any of you actually LIVE in the midwest? Everyone i knew in high school who was college bound took both.And ACT scores are accepted by most all east coast colleges.
Strangely enough, I scored in the top 20% for the SAT, top 3% for ACT, almost entirely owing to the science and social science section of the ACT

Truth said...

"Nation of Islam?"

No, Nation of Intellect

Truth said...

I would agree P.O.C, if one lived his life in accordance with The Ten Commandments, he would probably be doing a good job. I also understand why people believe in Johah and the whale and all that; it makes the tax collection go smoother, and in some way, it probably gives many of us a reason not to kill others.

I was, however, always the 3rd grader making other kids cry by telling them that "there is no Santa Claus, do you idiots really believe that a man could get to every house in the world in a few hours???"

The scorpion and the turtle.

Khosla said...

No, Nation of Intellect

Truth,

You are aware that Mahayana Buddhism is pretty damn racist, aren't you? The Asians that practice it believe that if one does not do well (spiritually) in this life, one will be reincarnated as a black person.

A corollary of this belief is that a black person who follows Mahayana and does spiritually well in this life will be reincarnated as a non-black person.

If you are aware of this tenet, I'm not sure what that exactly says about your psyche, judging from your copious commenting here.

patrick said...

A lot of Evangelical churches don't look like churches at all, either inside or outside. Megachurches are the polar opposite of Orthodox churches (or traditional-style Catholic or Anglican churches)

tommy said...

The bad news for everyone is that most of these new Christians believe in Prosperity Gospel, which is the one factor- perhaps the main factor- of the housing crash Steve has somehow overlooked.

We might call it "Cargo Cult Christianity."

Re the notion of Unitarians being "as neurotic as Jews", is it true, BTW, that a disproportionately large number of Unitarians are Jews by origin? I have read this allegation but don't remember where.

You might be thinking of attempts early in the last century to merge Unitarianism with Reconstructionist Judaism. Both sides were initially enthusiastic, but it didn't work out.

Unitarians and Reconstructionists both believe in practically nothing, but Reconstructionists still emphasized traditional Jewishness in their focus on "un-belief" and Unitarians emphasized Jesus in doing the same. They probably could have thrown Ethical Culture in the package if not for a slight preference among Unitarians and Reconstructionists for deism.

tommy said...

Their are 82 white Hindus?? I didn't know there were white Hindus. I thought you had to be born into certain castes to be Hindu.

Ever heard of Hare Krishnas? Or that crazy yogi in Oregon?

Truth said...

Khosla:

I have never heard that, and did a search and could not find anything similar.

There are many, many sects of Mahayana Buddhism in each of the Asian countries which practice it. What you have identified is probably a regional thing.

In any event Zen is an offshoot wing of Mahayana, so much so that people consider it a different sect. Traditional Buddhism carries the same love of ritual that I detest in other religions, so when asked, I generally refer to myself as "a practitioner of Zen" rather than "a Buddhist.

Khosla said...

Truth,

I see. Well good luck to you. I hope you practice Zen well enough in this life so that you can be reborn as a non-black person. Who knows, maybe you'll be reincarnated as a white HBD blogger!

Pissed Off Chinaman said...

"I see. Well good luck to you. I hope you practice Zen well enough in this life so that you can be reborn as a non-black person. Who knows, maybe you'll be reincarnated as a white HBD blogger!"

But Khosla,

If Truth practices Zen well in this life, why would he want to be reincarnated as some underachieving sexually frustrated nerdy white loser who uses his high IQ as a crutch to feel superior to minorities and women?

Pissed-Off Englishman said...

I disagree, strongly, with what 'Khosla' said to 'Truth', but 'Chinaman', you are one arrogant little jerk.

Anonymous said...

Please don't do this. IQ data is only acceptable inasmuch as Jews and Asians come out on top.

The young fogey said...

Interesting to me as a born and former Anglican. Pretty much the common-knowledge shorthand about Episcopalianism. Other commenters have corrected things a bit.

Chicken or the egg? Of course social climbers became Episcopalians 100 years ago because Episcopalianism already was upper-class, the cousins of the English gentry. The other British Protestants in America came to get away from the Anglicans and their state oppression. Of course the smart worked their way up and added to the Piskie gene pool.

Besides having had what's left of its faith shattered at the 'Enlightenment' (English Calvinism was hard hit by that - Congregationalists turned into Unitarians and today's United Church of Christ is boomer/SWPL-land - and Anglicanism after the time of Elizabeth I was very Calvinised among the clergy) so today's Episcopalians like other upper-class folk have pigged out on granola, it's very much a magnet for boomers still in the habit of going to church but want a divorce. That said it's true that Henry VIII didn't want a divorce but an annulment; before the late-1960s upheaval divorce was forbidden and annulments worked like with Roman Catholics.

As for 'Catholicism minus the Pope' and 'being like Eastern Orthodoxy', sort of/not really, speaking as somebody formed by the late great Anglo-Catholic movement that insisted the 'Reformation' didn't change the English Church's Catholic character and in practice beautifully imitated old-school Rome. Henry VIII was arguably Catholic without the Pope but after Elizabeth and the 'Enlightenment' you had good manners/social convention and agnosticism with a shell of mediƦval buildings and clergy with Catholic-sounding names and titles. (And lip service to very basic credal orthodoxy on paper.) Orthodoxy (of course an ethnic import but with a slight WASP uptick of recent conservative converts... still barely a blip on the radar and always will be in America) of course is Catholicism without the Roman notion of the Pope's powers. (Not only no Vatican but not even a Lambeth. Just a loose communion of bishops sharing the same faith yet doctrinally as tight as old-school Rome. Marvellous.)

Pissed Off Chinaman said...

POE,

Okay, folks on this board have wished violence on me, implied that I should be deported, questioned my loyalty to the US, called me a threat to Western Civ....etc etc etc (and this was just the stuff that Steve allowed to be posted). Oh and not to mention the stuff that has been directed at Truth. And somehow I'm the jerk?

Truth said...

"If Truth practices Zen well in this life, why would he want to be reincarnated as some underachieving sexually frustrated nerdy white loser who uses his high IQ as a crutch to feel superior to minorities and women?"

Good show P.O.C; the only thing I could possibly add would be "supposedly" before "high IQ."

Svigor said...

And somehow I'm the jerk?

They're not mutually exclusive propositions.

Pissed-Off Englishman said...

"Okay, folks on this board have wished violence on me, implied that I should be deported, questioned my loyalty to the US, called me a threat to Western Civ....etc etc etc (and this was just the stuff that Steve allowed to be posted). Oh and not to mention the stuff that has been directed at Truth. And somehow I'm the jerk?"
__

PO Chinaman,

Most people here have been accepting of you, and many dialogue with you.

Frankly, I don't ever remember anyone ever 'threatening' you, and I would be suprised that Steve-O would let an actual threat go through and be posted.

My remark on why I perceive arrogance on your part is that you seem to primarily come here to boast and brag about yourself, and proceed to give us all morality lessons in how we are all 'bigoted'. Sorry charlie, but anyone who routinely does this is 'insecure' and a 'bigot' himself.

Sorry for the jerk comment POC, that was a bit strong, but your beef should have been wholly directed at Khosla, who was an utterly crass jerk toward our friend Truth.

Pissed Off Chinaman said...

POE,

I do appreciate that most folks on this board have been respectful and open to my viewpoints and I think most of ya'll are good people who are not bigoted. That being said, a few topics ago someone actually did wish that my friends would allow their "lower IQ less open minded families" to give me a good thrashing. It was one of the topics on Asians.

Oh and I am sorry if I come across as arrogant or bragging. That is not my intent at all. I mean if it is about the IQ thing earlier...it was one test and I only mentioned it because it was relevant to the thread about religion and IQ. Perhaps I should have not revealed the specific number but it's too late to correct it now. Again I am sorry if I came across as bragging and I will be more mindful of it in the future.

Truth said...

Two guys who can admit there mistakes, shake hands, and discust things in a civilized manner.

You see, diversity works.

Anonymous said...

Two guys who can admit there mistakes, shake hands, and discust things in a civilized manner.

You see, diversity works.


Yeah, notice how it didn't involve you.

Pissed-Off Englishman said...

"Two guys who can admit there mistakes, shake hands, and discust things in a civilized manner.

"You see, diversity works."
__

POC and Truth,

You are both fine gentlemen in my estimation.

*And thanks for elaborating on your feelings on the issue, POC.

Anonymous said...

these numbers lack the true meaning, it's proven high iqs contribute to many mental illnesses. unitarian and jews usually have a high number of unique mental diseases and they also have high iqs. direct correlation bewteen jews and mental illness or genetic diseases.

Anonymous said...

jews and chinese score high on iq test because of their discipline culture. 10 hours a day studying not bc of genetics. practice makes perfect

Anonymous said...

Probably the least useful website I have ever accesssed. Where are the Hugenots, hahahahahahahahah?