June 24, 2008

NYT: Italy lagging lamentably on de-Italianification

Wouldn't the whole world be better off if Italy weren't so damn Italian? I mean, what has Italian culture ever contributed to anything? When will the Italians get with the program and adopt the Universal Globoculture? The New York Times wants to know!

Italy Gives Cultural Diversity a Lukewarm Embrace

By MICHAEL KIMMELMAN

Europe, for all its diversity, can be remarkably provincial.

Ponder that for a moment.

Italian culture certainly isn’t diverse now. It subsists on an all-white, all-native, monoethnic diet of Italian game shows, Italian television mini-series, Italian advertisements on cable stations for improbable vibrating contraptions that promise to jiggle fat away, and Italian pop music. Even Roman schoolchildren no longer stray far from a spaghetti-with-ragĂș diet now that an intercultural city program to serve one international-themed lunch a month has been abandoned by the new center-right government, heeding some Italian mothers, who doubted the nutritional value of falafel and curry.

Italian children in Italy eat Italian food? The horror, the horror ...

And isn't it about time they tore down the Florence Cathedral and put up a Frank Gehry building made out of sheet metal? How come there's not a Hello Kitty logo anywhere on Michelangelo's "David"? Shouldn't La Scala dump Verdi and stage a tribute to the Spice Girls?

All across Europe attitudes are stiffening toward immigration, nowhere more so than here. …

Rome, an ancient magnet for foreigners, is naturally more integrated than most Italian cities and, unlike most of the country, it has taken at least a few steps in recent years to come to terms with its multicultural reality, among them instituting a public library program to reach immigrants and provide Romans with books and lectures about foreign cultures. The question now is whether such efforts will continue.

“We always thought of ourselves as a monoculture, but immigration is our present and future,” said Franco Pittau, an official of Caritas, a Roman Catholic social service and development association that, among other things, monitors immigration here.

Franca Eckert Coen echoed that remark. An Italian Jew in an overwhelmingly Roman Catholic city who lives in an apartment filled with Jewish art, she was in charge of multicultural policy under the former mayor of Rome, Walter Veltroni. Ms. Coen recalled a year when Chinese celebrated their New Year with dragons around the Day of Epiphany.

“The newspapers said the Chinese were against Christianity,” she said. “So we held a public event on the Campidoglio about Chinese culture and the New Year celebration, and now we have a Chinese parade each year.”

“It was the same with the Sikhs,” she added. “We had a public event after 2001. We also organized tours of the Capitoline Museums for immigrants. Then we asked them to do something. The Poles, for example, had someone play Polish music at the museum.”

“Little things,” she called them. “They can overcome big fears. I saw all these immigrants become a little bit Italian citizens. Culture is crucial to give people here a chance to see that to be foreign is to bring a different ethnic life to the city, that diversity is a positive.”

Do you ever get the impression that Kevin MacDonald has secretly bought a controlling interest in the New York Times and is rewriting its articles to make them prove his theories correct?

81 comments:

Garland said...

Do you ever get the impression that Kevin MacDonald has secretly bought a controlling interest in the New York Times and is rewriting its articles to make them prove his theories correct?

Heheh...um, that's one way to put it. Another way: "Do you ever get the impression that Kevin MacDonald's theories are correct?"

(okay I feel a little guilty posting this but a dozen other commenters are going to say it and more so what the hell)

Z said...

"An Italian Jew in an overwhelmingly Roman Catholic city who lives in an apartment filled with Jewish art, [Ms. Coen] was in charge of multicultural policy under the former mayor of Rome, Walter Veltroni."

A Jew named Ms. Coen used to be in charge of "multicultural policy" in Rome?! Wow. Just...wow.

Mostly though I'd like to know how 'multicultural' Ms. Coen's own family, neighborhood, and synagogue is.

rob said...

immigration is our present and future

Yes, if you have no children. Once upon a time Italians had babies: Italians were the future of Italy.

A monocultural society can probably successfully encourage fertility. But with a fast-reproducing diversity already there, can Italy actually encourage Italians to have babies without encourage the diversity even more? The problem only gets worse if Italian women go from 1.1 to 1.4 children, and the diversity goes from 3-5.

I think I know why you make so many people angry Steve. If evolcon views are even moderately close to reality, every social policy for decades has been sowing the wind.

Murray's custodial democracy will be the best future we can expect.

dearieme said...

They may not like immigrants, but they have provided the world with planty of emigrants, spreading their filthy ice cream culture everywhere. And bloody Rossini. Bastards.

joy of diversity said...

A British liberal gets a nasty shock in Italy:

On the first day of my holiday, headlines in local and national papers screamed about the crime wave unleashed by the immigranti... In my local bar the next day, I asked the lesbian couple who run it (who you might expect, for obvious reasons, not to be the greatest supporters of Italian conservatism) what they made of it. "Grande problema," they said, and I smiled with relief, but then it turned out that the "grande problema" was not anti-immigrant hysteria, but the immigrants themselves. Stealing our jobs, our possessions, our country was the general tenor of nearly all the discussions I had over the next fortnight.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/christina-patterson/christina-patterson-ah-italy--sunshine-olive-oil-blatant-racism-851636.html

Worse still, the British liberal's sermon is contradicted in the comments -- that never happened in good old pre-internet days.

agnostic said...

I was at a gay club in Barcelona once (....where I went to meet two girl friends who felt safer there...), and I naively expected the same thing about gays having American liberal values.

Some guy asked me what I thought of Bush, and I said I didn't like him (true, plus you risk getting into a pointless argument in the leftist city if you say otherwise).

He responded: "He's good, though. He's strong. He's really taking care of those Moors [moros]," referring to Iraq or our hunt for the 9/11 terrorists or something.

Preserving the coolness of their culture is something Spaniards and Italians of all stripes want, so they can get away with a lot more level-headed thinking about immigration.

halfbreed said...

When you think about it, even over here, Italian-Americans seem to have much more of a we-don't-take-any-shit attitude towards this country's most visible minority than do, say, most Anglos. I've met a couple Italian-American liberals, but the vast majority of them seem much more commonsensical.

Anonymous said...

The tide turns. Such is life. The NYT protests and it matters not. Heigh-ho.

Jeremiah said...

Reiminds me of Longshanks' quote in Braveheart:

"The problem with Scotland is, it's full of Scots!"

Michael said...

I'm just back from teaching a semester in Rome.

I agree that the food is a little provincial (in Rome they'll tell you about that great Venetian restaurant - you know, exotic!). TV is hardly monoethnic or even Italian! Just a few examples: There's a big trashy makeover show hosted by a flamingly gay mixed-race guy. There's an African-Italian (someone told me he's Ethiopian in background) newscaster on one of Berlusconi's channels. There are persons of various colors on the Italian version of Big Brother. Some of the most popular soap operas are Latin American dubs. I'm not sure what television he was watching!

Svigor said...

"Europe, for all its diversity, can be remarkably provincial.

Ponder that for a moment."

Ehehehe. Priceless.

As for whether or not MacDonald's theories are correct, who cares? It's like wondering if black behavioral genetic means are a (the) primary factory in "black failure," or if it's owed to a persistent, unshakable cultural factor. Either way, it's reality and it isn't going anywhere. Same goes for MacDonald's data. That's the real sin, in either case; the data alone is grounds for burning at the stake.

Anonymous said...

"An Italian Jew in an overwhelmingly Roman Catholic city who lives in an apartment filled with Jewish art, [Ms. Coen] was in charge of multicultural policy under the former mayor of Rome, Walter Veltroni."

As Alan Dershowitz has said many, many, times: "The most segregated place in America, is a Synagogue on worship day."

And I might add, so has Steven Spielberg.

Chaos said...

It's interesting how in the days of advanced human rights mainstream outlets like the NYT feel comfotable calling for what is essentially the genocide of certain people - in this case the Italians. But I guess if you call for the disappearance of people and cultures in the name of good it's not really that bad - just like when the communist killed tens of millions it wasn't really that bad.

The strategy of all of modern liberal/communist movements is to unleash (often anti-western violence) or displacement by wrapping the actions in the rhetoric of moral goodness. Unfortunately there is a large portion of western population that falls these tricks. People of European descent should ask themselves why they are vulnerable to such tactics, when they often fail in other parts of the world.

David said...

Kimmelman. Coen.

Anonymous said...

half breed: most are southern italian, northern, very differente.

I have a question. Does the NYT and Ms Coen (whose house isn't so multicultural, is it?) and reporters Kimmleman feel israel shoudl do the same? WHy not a flurry of articles on how Israel should be more diverse and how it is lagging , what with its intermarriage laws and jewish only immigration.

The NYT publishes dozens of pro israel articles every week, so I am sure they would like Israel to be enriched and not 'lag behind' on diversity-mania

Anonymous said...

Steve, you've become a conspiracy nutjob.

Don't you know that from Stephen Pinker through Larry Auster to Scott Atran, MacDonald is everybody's fond object of ridicule because, you see, Jews cannot be acting in perceivable patterns... or else we will have another holocaust. It is utterly unthinkable that Jews do anything as a group that may further their interests as a group since each group has a tendency to display the full spectrum of all human characteristics. (I've heard, for instance, that one out of every 1267 Norwegians is born a lizard or a platipus. These things happen.)

The variation within a group (don't ask how we have identified that group) is larger than the difference between the poor fellows who happen to be standing right in the middle of their distributions -- and I myself think those two bastards are doing that out of malice; they probably have some "hate" agenda to insist on differing which may lead to another holocaust.

As a striking example, although some women have more uteruses than men, this cannot indicate any genuine pattern. After all, girls and boys are very much like each other at age 3 -- if not that, at the 7th week of pregnancy -- so girls must be learning to have uteruses socially. Similarly, since some men grow boobs as they grow older, this obviously proves that sex is a social construct since it is "society" that ridicules booby men.

In any case, even if it turned out miraculously -- after the mother of all paradigm shifts -- that biological differences (God forbid) do exist, they are utterly insignificant. Those who think having babies, or even being born themselves, is significant are brain-washed. I know that the most significant even of my life is something that happened 18 years before I was born: the Holocaust. No matter how hard I try, I can't seem to get away from that event. Since it is not in any way tied to my biological existence, biological facts are negligible.

Every act humans engage in is a new throw of the dice in a Heisenbergian universe where if I start a sentence, no one can be sure whether I'll finish it verbally or start frying eggs right in the middle of it and end up painting a new variant of Dali's "Persistence of Memory." That's because variations are "random" (which means "don't ask don't tell, don't measure; whatever floats your boat, dude"). So, we know that Mr. Coen is doing what he's doing not because he feels it's easier for him as a Jew to hide in a crowd -- and the more the ethnicies, the merrier the hiding -- but to help humanity move beyond the quagmire of biological differences. And don't let Mr. Coen's last name fool you: it's just a random re-arrangement of the word "Cone;" obviously, his dad was in an impish mood when he was having his son's birth certificate issued, and decided to play anagrams with the family last name.

So, since our first priority as humanity is to prevent holocausts (the most significant event in human history), our only option is to create a slow-motion racial/cultural holocaust for whites whom as we know (randomly, to be sure) is the "cancer" of history.

My only gripe is why -- if existence on earth is so randomly driven -- we cannot let go off of the poor Germans. I'm pretty sure the Nazis were also a random fact of history: they only wanted to tidy up the chess clubs and philately associations in Germany and found themselves killing Jews. Let's put an end to blaming the victims of randomness of all varieties.


JD

ben tillman said...

Good post.

Do you ever get the impression that Kevin MacDonald has secretly bought a controlling interest in the New York Times and is rewriting its articles to make them prove his theories correct?

Very droll. But, yes, his theories help us understand the world around us, which is what science is supposed to do.

Black Sea said...

"Rome . . . has taken at least a few steps in recent years to come to terms with its multicultural reality . . ."

A typical Times rhetorical ploy.

The writer throws Rome - which, if you've ever seen it, requires no description - a decidely small bone for not being absolutely, hopelessly retrograde on this matter, and what's worse "provincial." (Oh, the shame.)

He then implys that hewing to the Times' orthodoxy on matters multi-cultural is less a matter of policy-making (thus subject to debate) and more a matter of simply having the wherewith all to face "reality" (which is supposedly a matter of fact rather than opinion).

Keep striving, you far-sighted Roman few, and perhaps someday you'll make something of yourself!

Anonymous said...

My brother's fiance is in Italy right now visiting family, mostly in Sicily though her father seems more northern Italian. She's a very religious woman, a teacher at a Catholic elementary school, and she is awestruck and gratified by what she sees in Italy. Catholicism permeates everything, she says. One can't go into something as simple as a restaurant without there being at least one crucifix on the wall. Throughout the countryside and niches in the towns one sees statues, shrines, etc. Most importantly, she says the church she attended with her Italian family was full and full of young families.

Anonymous said...

"every social policy for decades has been sowing the wind"

Yup. we're the Krell. We built a culture featuring multiculturlism, victimology, feminism, socialism, and of course political corectness and now we are all disappearing. Dr. Morbious will discover this all in a thousnd years.

Matt Parrott said...

Steve,

Why haven't you reviewed any of MacDonald's work? I know you've done some defensive work in criticizing the critics, but don't you, as a critic, feel compelled to offer your opinion on his very controversial work?

Or is that just a bit more controversy than you're comfortable with? :)

William said...

Mostly though I'd like to know how 'multicultural' Ms. Coen's own family, neighborhood, and synagogue is.

What do you mean you'd "like to know"? We already do know - her apartment is "filled with Jewish art." And if a group of people as small as the Jews can survive outnumbered as separatists in large nations for centuries on centuries, it says a thing or two about how much they value multiculturalism, doesn't it?

Mark said...

Look at the photograph used to illustrate the story. NYT uses orwellian methods to indoctrinate americans.

William said...

Ms. Coen recalled a year when Chinese celebrated their New Year with dragons around the Day of Epiphany....“So we held a public event on the Campidoglio about Chinese culture and the New Year celebration, and now we have a Chinese parade each year [then] ee had a public event [for the Sikhs]after 2001. [Then] the Poles, for example, had someone play Polish music at the museum.”

It's a pity Ms. Coen's employer, Mayor Veltroni, did't get re-elected, because the next year they were gunna celebrate the Muslims by sending several suicide bombers to career day at Roman elementary schools.

Anonymous said...

An Italian Jew in an overwhelmingly Roman Catholic city who lives in an apartment filled with Jewish art,

Hmm would they describe an German with Wagner playing in his apartment as multicultural, or a nazi? Are they just getting sloppy or blunt?

Mike H. said...

An Italian Jew in an overwhelmingly Roman Catholic city who lives in an apartment filled with Jewish art, she was in charge of multicultural policy under the former mayor of Rome, Walter Veltroni

Is it really "muliticultural" when a Jew has an apartment filled with Jewish art? Personally, I have always felt that "multicultural" is just a code word for non-white and non-Christian.

Anonymous said...

Disconcerting to see an Italian Jew spouting this nonsense, but I wonder how representative she is of the rest of the Jewish population there. I can't imagine they are all enthusiastic about welcoming more Muslim immigrants, but who knows.

It's interesting that while Italy is becoming more diverse, Italian-Americans seem to cling more strongly to their Italian heritage. Yesterday in the heavily Italian-American town of Moonachie, NJ, I saw one of the town's ambulances drive by with two large flags sticking out of its rear bumper: an American flag, and an Italian one (dual loyalties?). Clearly, no one on the ambulance crew had served in the U.S. military, because if they had, they would know which was the position of honor, and they would have given that position to the U.S. flag and not the Italian one.

- Fred

Scott said...

Notice how these Jewish writers only criticize nations that somewhat homogeneously White; Asian and Jewish territories are acceptable though.

H. said...

Having studied art history and Italian in Italy back in the 80s, I must say I'd be sorry to see that madhouse of a country dragged down by criminally stupid immigrants. For all their eccentricities, though, Italians are really conservative and don't have any illusions about the real character of third world peoples, especially Muslims--why else were they the ones who swept the Moors out of the Mediterranean? Therefore, I have a feeling that Italy may take the lead in an anti-immigrant backlash across the EU.

Scott said...

LOL my thoughts precisely! We all know that any expression of ethnocentrism will lead us to the (fill in the letters) H_ _ o _ _ _ _ t.

Anonymous said...

Halfbreed -

You're right about Italian-Americans hating "diversity."

Genetically, Italians are ethnocentric people. I say this as a so-called "Italian"- American. (I usually refer to myself simply as "American.") Whether Italians realize it consciously or not, they want to live and interact their own kind. In America, this means traditional, conservative, patriarchal-leaning European-derived whites.

Make no mistake - Italians and Jews often have a lot in common - they see in the other a familiar "ethnocentric" face. There is a shared high interest in family. Also, Italians and Jews seem to be biologically high in Aristotle's version of "Thumos":
spirited, aggressive, protective of one's own.

The average Italian, genetically, cannot fathom your average spineless WASP latte drinking elitist who is ashamed of his own culture, and sacrifices it for "diversity."

This does not change when the "American-Italian" is educated, upper class. I write from experience.

The main difference between Italians and Jews is that Jews seem to be on a genetic mission, as MacDonald tells us, to force "diversity" down the throats of the whole world - except themselves.

Italians, and Italian-Americans, lack this "culture of critique" gene and cannot understand it.

The problem with Italians generally is they are what Slekzine called "Apollonians": eat, drink, be merry. Unlike Ashkenazi Jews, Italians lack a critical mass of 120+ IQ in the race. You'll probably find with the ones that have it - there was cross breeding centuries ago with Northern European stock.

So you have a situation in Italy, and also here in America, where "Italians" are never going to be converted to "diversity". But they lack the congregate IQ to protect their interests. But this is the problem with the WASPS as well.

I grew up in largely Jewish area in North Jersey. I've seen first hand that most of my Jewish neighbors are super-liberals politically. They complain that America is not "diverse" enough. Meanwhile, when they come home at night they live in an almost totally homogenized, high income, "lily-white" Jewish neighborhood. How about diversity in your own neighborhood, Seth? Their own kids are too good to live next to "Mamzers." But, apparently, it's OK for everyone else.

simon said...

The liberal-left media are freaking out over Italy's turn towards sanity. At least they can console themselves there's no sign of that in northern Europe, or America. Here in the UK this week the Tory leadership have been busy sacking various aides and candidates for being insufficiently PC on immigration.

josh said...

Thats all well and good,but poor ms Coen is out of a job,and she,like the dear Michelle O.,whose style,btw,is being compared to Jackie Kennedy,sounds like a somewhat hi-maintenance girl! Hmmm,what can this dear woman do? How about Chairwoman Of Rape And Torture of White Female Graduate Students Prevention at Columbia U.? Her knowledge of diversity would stand her in good stead!

Anonymous said...

When I was in Barcelona, a girl I knew was gang raped by the diversity. So maybe your friends didn't just *feel* safer at the gay club, agnostic. And maybe Italians and Spaniards are concerned about something serious.

Concerned said...

The NY Times reporter goes to Italy and interviews someone like....himself. (Jewish, de-cultured, etc.)

Italian Jews are loyal and patriotic Italians. I bet they are very concerned about Muslim immigration.

Anonymous said...

Who cares that Coen is Jewish? She's a busybody regardless and there are many non-Jews such as Coen. Most liberal Jews do want Israel to be diverse. And, of course, Israel is perhaps the most diverse country on earth. It's defined by religion above all, which is not much different from the United States, whereto most immigrants are Christian. There are Jews of every racial and miscegenated background in Israel. And there are lots and lots of Arabs in the country, who benefit from affirmative action and who are largely subersive lefties in their political expressions.

Anonymous said...

We all know that any expression of ethnocentrism will lead us to the (fill in the letters) H_ _ o _ _ _ _ t.

One point that bears reiterating -- the casuistic talking points that are so ubiquitous (such as "criticism of group X = Holocaust") did not spring forth fully fledged from the head of each rationally thinking actor.

These exact talking points are taught to schoolchildren over and over again. Just one example is the ADL Pyramid of Hate:

www.adl.org/education/courttv/pyramid_of_hate.pdf

See page 7 and 8. The direct relationship is made between criticism and genocide.

This argument is too stupid for everyone to independently come up with on their own! You did not think of this yourself. It is intellectual software that was the default install on your system if you went through K-12.

That default install provides enormous power to the group doing the installing, just as the Windows default provides enormous power to MS and the Flash default provides enormous power to Adobe.


Take a look over every idea and talking point that the left recites -- that you've likely internalized and valid -- and start comparing to the SPLC and ADL educational programs. This is a deliberate program of indoctrination and deserves exposure.

To start the rollback -- I think that people interested in h-bd should start thinking about making a fact sheet of indisputable historical facts about Communism, and pushing it hard to K-12. It's really critical to get some counterprogramming out there. Making the Black Book of Communism a household name would be a good start.

Mark said...

"And, of course, Israel is perhaps the most diverse country on earth."

What percentage of Israel's population is sub-saharan african?

patrick said...

Israel is not homogeneously Jewish in the same way that Japan is homogeneously Japanese. Israeli Arabs are about 15% of the population. Liberal Jews in Israel and to a lesser extent in the diaspora have been critical of Israel for treatment of the Arab population and for rejecting non-Jewish African refugees. I have also heard coverage on NPR about China's discrimination against African students.
The obsession with Jews and with Kevin MacDonald's pseudoscience ("group evolutionary strategy", LOL) is creepy and stupid.
Anyway, I hate to burst any WN folks' bubbles ;); but I suspect that many Italians are more closely related to Jews than to, say, Scots or Danes.

Terry said...

"Fascists and Jews united for Rome mayor" - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4d07386e-19fd-11dd-ba02-0000779fd2ac.html

Anonymous said...

patrick: oh man, you called us WN, you named MacDonald's work as "pseudoscience" (also "creepy" and "stupid;" you forgot to mention "mucous" and "depilated") you even put a "LOL" there. What more devastating evidence do we need? My knees feel weak, my hands are shaking. Oh my burst bubble, isn't life a bitch?


JD

Anonymous said...

Lets look at what Patrick says here:

"I hate to burst any WN folks' bubbles ;); but I suspect that many Italians are more closely related to Jews than to, say, Scots or Danes."

'Suspect', 'many' & 'probably', so you admit your statement is fuzzy with respect to three dimensions and thats going to burst my bubble.

I think in many respects Im close to a WN position. Im of northern European upbringing and (mostly) extraction. Yet funnily enough I do have some Italian and Jewish ancestry on both sides of my family tree. Is that bursting your bubble Patrick?

anony-mouse said...

1/ Mark asks 'What percentage of Israel' population is sub-Saharan African?'

Not a lot. But it was even lower before the Israeli government brought over tens of thousands of Ethiopian Jews voluntarily.

2/ Kevin McDonald's 'group evolutionary strategy', that Darwin seems to have missed, apparently involves exactly one group. No other group of humans (or any other organism) seem to have one. Odd.

Svigor said...

6/25/2008

LOL, you've got to be kidding. I mean...really? Really?

Sometimes I think I'm all Aspergery, the way I'll argue with even the silliest statements, just to make sure they don't go unchallenged.

But really?

Svigor said...

2/ Kevin McDonald's 'group evolutionary strategy', that Darwin seems to have missed, apparently involves exactly one group. No other group of humans (or any other organism) seem to have one. Odd.

This is odd, but since it's your construct...

"Darwin missed it"? LOL, what is that supposed to mean?

MacDonald probably chose Jews because they're the paragon. Why start with the worst examples?

He's written a bit about the overseas Chinese, BtW - in his trilogy on Jews. But you read it so you knew that already.

Anonymous said...

Am I the only one that's noticed that the NY Times always interviews a Jewish person, regardless of where they go? This sounds like paranoia but damn if it doesn't keep happening. I've been seeing this for as long as I've read the paper. I'd love to know how their reporters pick the particular people they choose to interview.

Anonymous said...

"Am I the only one that's noticed that the NY Times always interviews a Jewish person, regardless of where they go? This sounds like paranoia but damn if it doesn't keep happening. I've been seeing this for as long as I've read the paper. I'd love to know how their reporters pick the particular people they choose to interview."

I'll tell you from personal experience, being a member of the International Jewish Conspiracy (TM) ain't what it used to be. Back in the day, we'd get our fat dividend checks from the Rothschilds every month. Now we have to settle for "man on the street" interviews with the NY Times. Things are tough all over.

SFG said...

Oh yeah, liberal Jews want a two-state solution. And the Israeli Arabs don't want to leave and join their Arab brethren, because it's better to be a second-class citizen in a first-world country than a first-class citizen in a third-world country.

Yes Israel is nationalistic, but so, increasingly, are the Euros, and I don't see it as a bad thing.

anony-mouse said...

1/ Darwin. The fellow who created the theory of evolution. Kevin Macdonald is supposedly an 'evolutionary psychologist'.

I could add that Herbert Spencer, Darwin's cousin who created 'Social Darwinism' and thus brought evolution into the social sciences also missed 'group evolutionary strategy'.

In fact everyone who never wrote a trilogy on Jews seems to have missed 'group evolutionary strategy'

2/ A little bit about overseas Chinese and a trilogy about Jews and nothing about anyone else?. Sounds like an obsession about Jews instead of science.

The Jews a 'paragon' of 'group evolutionary strategy'? If you write a trilogy about something (and a little bit about overseas Chinese) aren't you saying that the Jews are essentially the only example of this 'group evolutionary strategy'. MacDonald could just for variety sake write one book about some other entity in the Universe that exhibits this trait.

3/ Anyhow its nice to know he managed to get tenure. But doesn't that fact disprove his theories?

4/ Getting back to food, which is a much more yummy subject.

Does anyone voluntarily only eat foods created by their own group? I'm sure even the Minutemen have eaten tacos or burritos.

Why there may be commenters here who have eaten bagels (don't worry I can't prove it)

If the people of Rome can eat sauerkraut and bratwurst even though twice Germans at least twice (Alaric and Charles V) sacked their city and once (Hitler, after the overthrow of Mussonini in 1943) occupied it, then they can easily consume General Whatsisname's Chicken.

Of all the multiculti things to be concerned about.

PS It was Benjamin Franklin who brought tofu to America-and it took 200 years for it to catch on. So we can assume Italians will be eating pizza for many years to come.

corvinus said...

Remember the last final World Cup match? Remember the ethnic composition of the teams?

Anonymous said...

Kevin McDonald's 'group evolutionary strategy', that Darwin seems to have missed....

Actually, it features prominently in The Descent of Man.

ben tillman said...

Addendum to the last comment:

Does anyone read books any more?

ben tillman said...

A little bit about overseas Chinese and a trilogy about Jews and nothing about anyone else?

*You* seem to have an ethnopolitical ax to grind.

BOOKS:

MacDonald, K. B. (Ed.) (1988). Sociobiological Perspectives on Human Development. New York: Springer-Verlag.

MacDonald, K. B. (1988). Social and Personality Development: An Evolutionary Synthesis. New York: Plenum. 314pp.

MacDonald, K. B. (Ed.). (1993). Parent-child Play: Descriptions and Implications. Albany, NY: State University of New York Press.

PAPERS and REVIEWS ONLINE:

MacDonald, K. (2006). Conscientiousness and the Modular Mind: The Regulation of Human Evolved Predispositions. PowerPoint presentation at the meetings of the International Society for Human Ethology, Wayne State University, Detroit, MI, Aug. 3, 2006.

MacDonald, K., & Hershberger, S. (2005). Theoretical Issues in the Study of Evolution and Development. In R. Burgess and K. MacDonald (Eds.), Evolutionary Perspectives on Human Development, 2nd edition, pp. 21–72. Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage.

MacDonald, K. (2005). Personality, Evolution, and Development. In R. Burgess and K. MacDonald (Eds.), Evolutionary Perspectives on Human Development, 2nd edition, pp. 207–242. Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage.

Chiappe, D., & MacDonald, K. B. (2005). The Evolution of Domain-General Mechanisms in Intelligence and Learning. Journal of General Psychology, 132(1), 5–40.

MacDonald, K. B., & Chiappe, D. Review of The Origin of Mind: The Evolution of Brain, Cognition, and General Intelligence, by David Geary. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association, 2005. Human Ethology Bulletin, 21(2), 14-18, June 2006.

MacDonald, K. B. Review of On Genetic Interests: Family, Ethny, and Humanity in an Age of Mass Migration, by Frank Salter (Frankfurt Am Main, Germany: Peter Lang, 2003). Human Ethology Bulletin, 20(2), 7–10, June 2005. An edited version of this review appeared in the National Observer (Australia), 62 (Spring, 2004).

MacDonald, K. B. What Makes Western Culture Unique? Occidental Quarterly, Vol. 2(2), Summer 2002: 9-38.

MacDonald, K. B. (2001). An Integrative Evolutionary Perspective on Ethnicity. Politics and the Life Sciences, 20, 67-79. (This paper appeared in 2004 because of delays at the journal. It reflects a literature review as of 2002.)

MacDonald, K. B. (2000). Book Review Essay: The Numbers Game: Ethnic Conflict in the Contemporary World. Population and Environment, 21, 413-425.

MacDonald, K. B. (1999). An evolutionary perspective on human fertility. Population and Environment, 21(2), 223-246.

MacDonald, K. B. (1999). Love and Confidence in Protection as Two Independent Systems Underlying Intimate Relationships. Journal of Family Psychology, 13(4), 492-495.

MacDonald, K. B. (1999) A New Paradigm for Evolutionary Psychology: The Centrality of Domain-General Mechanisms for Conceptualizing Human Adaptation. Review of Male, Female: The Evolution of Human Sex Differences by David C. Geary. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association, 1998. Human Ethology Bulletin, 14(2), 12–15, June 1999..

MacDonald, K. B. (1998). Evolution, Culture, and the Five-Factor Model. Journal of Cross-Cultural Psychology 29, 119-149.

Segal, N., & MacDonald, K. B. (1998). Behavior Genetics and Evolutionary Psychology: A Unified Perspective on Personality Research. Human Biology70, 157-182.

Lusk, J., MacDonald, K., & Newman, J. R. (1998). Resource Appraisals among Self, Friend and Leader: Implications for an Evolutionary Perspective on Individual Differences and a Resource/Reciprocity Perspective on Friendship. Personality and Individual Differences, 24, 685-700.

MacDonald, K. B. (1998). Evolution and development. In A. Campbell & S. Muncer (Eds.), Social Development, (pp. 21-49). London: UCL Press.

MacDonald, K. B. (1997). The Coherence of Individual Development: An Evolutionary Perspective on Children's Internalization of Parental Values. In J. Grusec & L. Kuczynski (Eds.), Parenting and Children's Internalization of Values: A Handbook of Contemporary Theory (pp. 362-397). New York: Wiley.

MacDonald, K. B. (1997). Life History Theory and Human Reproductive Behavior: Environmental/Contextual Influences and Heritable Variation. Human Nature, 8, 327-359.

MacDonald, K. B. (1996). What do children want? An evolutionary perspective on children's motivation in the peer group. International Journal of Behavioral Development, 19(1), 53-73. This is part of a special issue on "Evolutionary perspectives on peer relations" edited by P. LaFreniere and K. MacDonald.

MacDonald, K. B. (1996). Freud's Follies: Psychoanalysis as religion, cult, and political movement. Skeptic, 4(3), 94-99.

MacDonald, K. B. (1995). Evolution, the Five Factor Model, and Levels of Personality. Journal of Personality 63, 525-567. Special issue on "Levels and Domains of Personality" edited by R. A. Emmons and D. McAdams.

MacDonald, K. B. (1995). The Establishment and Maintenance of Socially Imposed Monogamy in Western Europe. HTML File. Politics and the Life Sciences, 14, 3-23, 1995. This article was the subject of commentaries by Laura Betzig, Monique Borgerhoff Mulder, James A. Brundage, Ulrich Mueller, Frank Salter, John M. Strate, and David Sloan Wilson, followed by a reply by me. See: Commentaries.

MacDonald, K. B. (1992). Warmth as a developmental construct: An evolutionary analysis. Child Development, 63, 753-773.

MacDonald, K. B. (1992). A Time and a Place for Everything: A Discrete Systems Perspective on the Role of Children's Rough and Tumble Play in Educational Settings. Early Education and Development. 3, 334-355.

MacDonald, K. B. (1991). A perspective on Darwinian psychology: The importance of domain-general mechanisms, plasticity, and individual differences. Ethology and Sociobiology, 12, 449-480.

MacDonald, K. B. (1990). Mechanisms of sexual egalitarianism in Western Europe. Ethology and Sociobiology, 11, 195–238.

MacDonald, K. B. (1989). The plasticity of human social organization and behavior: Contextual variables and proximal mechanisms. Ethology and Sociobiology, 10, 171-194.

MacDonald, K. B. (Ed.), (1988). The interfaces between developmental psychology and evolutionary biology. In K. MacDonald (Ed.), Sociobiological Perspectives on Human Development. New York: Springer-Verlag, 1988.

MacDonald, K. B. (Ed.), (1988). Sociobiology and the cognitive-developmental tradition in moral development. In K. MacDonald (Ed.), Sociobiological Perspectives on Human Development. New York: Springer-Verlag, 1988.

MacDonald, K. B. (Ed.), (1988). Socialization in the context of the family: A sociobiological perspective. In K. MacDonald (Ed.), Sociobiological Perspectives on Human Development. New York: Springer-Verlag, 1988.

MacDonald, K. B. (1987). Parent-child physical play with rejected, neglected and popular boys. Developmental Psychology, 23, 705-711.

MacDonald, K. B. (1986). Early experience, relative plasticity and cognitive development. Journal of Applied Developmental Psychology, 7, 101-124. This article was the lead article in a special issue of this journal devoted to the issues of plasticity and early experience. The other articles were directed at my article.

MacDonald, K. B. (1986). Developmental models and early experience. International Journal of Behavioral Development, 9, 175-190.

MacDonald, K. B., & Parke, R. D. (1986). Parent-child physical play: The effects of sex and age of children and parents. Sex Roles, 15, 367-378.

MacDonald, K. B. (1986). Civilization and Its Discontents Revisited: Freud as an Evolutionary Biologist. Journal of Social and Biological Structures, 9, 213-220.

MacDonald, K. B. (1985). Early experience, relative plasticity and social development. Developmental Review, 5, 99-121. This paper was selected for reprinting in S. Chess and A. Thomas (Eds.), Annual Progress in Child Psychiatry and Child Development; 1986 edition, pp. 86-110. New York: Brunner/Mazel, Inc.

MacDonald, K. B., & Parke, R. D. (1984). Bridging the gap: Parent-child play interactions and peer interactive competence. Child Development, 55, 1265-1277.

MacDonald, K. B. (1984). An ethological-social learning theory of the development of altruism: Implications for human sociobiology. Ethology and Sociobiology, 5, 97-109.

MacDonald, K. B. (1983). Production, social controls and ideology: Toward a sociobiology of the phenotype. Journal of Social and Biological Structures, 6, 297–317.

MacDonald, K. B. (1983). Development and stability of personality characteristics in prepubertal wolves. Journal of Comparative Psychology, 97, 99-106, 1983. An abstract of this paper was published in Behavior Genetics, 9, 467, 1979.

MacDonald, K. B., & Ginsburg, B. E. (1981). Induction of normal behavior in wolves with restricted rearing. Behavioral and Neural Biology, 33, 133-162.

OTHER PAPERS and COMMENTS
Wehr, P., MacDonald, K. B., Lindner, R., & Yeung, G. (2001). Stabilizing vs. Directional Selection on Facial Attractiveness: Averageness or Neoteny? Human Nature, 12(4), 383-402.

MacDonald, K. B. (2000). Variation in Mating Dispositions. Comment on 'The Evolution of Human Mating: Trade-offs and Strategic Pluralism,' by S. W. Gangestad & J. A. Simpson. Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23(4), 609-610 .

MacDonald, K. B. (1998). Individual Differences and the Adaptiveness of Patriarchal Ideology. Commentary on Anne Campbell's 'Staying Alive: Evolution, Culture, and Women's Intra-sexual Aggression. Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 22(2), 230.

MacDonald, K. B. What about Sex Differences? An Adaptationist Perspective on 'the Lines of Causal Influence' of Personality Systems. Commentary on 'Neurobiology of the Structure of Personality: Dopamine Facilitation of Incentive Motivation and Extraversion' by R. A. Depue & P. F. Collins. Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 22(3), 530-531.

LaFreniere, P. J., & MacDonald, K. (1996). Evolutionary Perspectives on Children's Resource-directed Behaviour in Peer Relationships: An Introduction. International Journal of Behavioural Development, 19(1), 1-5.

MacDonald, K. B. (1995). Views on the Race: IQ controversies. ASCAP Newsletter 8(1), 4-5.

MacDonald, K. B. (1995). Response to Freedman and Price: How many mechanisms? ASCAP Newsletter 8(5), 5-6.

MacDonald, K. B. (1995). How many mechanisms? ASCAP Newsletter8(5), 5-6.

MacDonald, K. B. (1994). Personality development. In Encyclopedia of Human Behavior, Vol. 3, pp. 461-467. Orlando, FL: Academic Press; reprinted in the Encyclopedia of Mental Health, ed. H. Friedman. Orlando, FL: Academic Press, 1998; in press.

MacDonald, K. B. (1991). Rites of Passage. In R. M. Lerner, A. C. Petersen, and J. Brooks-Gunn (Eds.), The Encyclopedia of Adolescence (pp. 944-946). New York: Garland Publishing, 1991.

Charlesworth, W., & MacDonald, K. B. (1990). Let's get the review straight. Contemporary Psychology, 35, 509-510.

Smith, P. K., with contributions from Montagner, H., Strayer, F., Archer, J., Blurton-Jones, N., and MacDonald, K. (1990). Ethology, sociobiology and developmental psychology: In memory of Niko Tinbergen and Konrad Lorenz. British Journal of Developmental Psychology, 8, 187-200.

Parke, R. D., MacDonald, K. B., Burks, V. M., Carson, J., Bhavnagri, N., Barth, J., and Bietel, A. (1989). Family and peer system: In search of linkages. In K. Kreppner and R. M. Lerner (Eds.), Family Systems and Life Span Development (pp. 65-92). New York: Academic Press.

Parke, R. D., MacDonald, K. B., Bietel, A., and Bhavnagri, N. (1988). The role of the family in the development of peer relationships. In R. D. Peters and R. J. McMahon (Ed.), Social Learning and Systems Approaches to Marriage and the Family (pp. 17-44). New York: Brunner/Mazel Publishers.

MacDonald, K. B. (1986). Biological and cultural interactions in early adolescence: A sociobiological perspective. In R. Lerner and T. Foch (Eds.), Biological-Psychosocial Interactions in Early Adolescence: A Life-Span Perspective (pp. 95-120). Hillsdale, New Jersey: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates.

MacDonald, K. B. (1986). Development and stability of personality characteristics in prepubertal wolves: Implications for pack organization and behavior. In H. Frank (Ed.), Man and Wolf (pp. 293-312). The Hague: Dr. W. Junk Publishers.

MacDonald, K. B. (1980). Activity patterns in a captive wolf pack. Carnivore, 2, 62-64.

Other Reviews
MacDonald, K. B. Where is evolution taking us now? Book review essay on Dysgenics: Genetic Deterioration in Modern Populations. Westport, CT: Praeger, 1997. Personality and Individual Differences, in press.

MacDonald, K. B. Review of DNA and Destiny: Nature and Nurture in Human Behavior, by R. Grant Steen. New York and London: Plenum Press, 1996. Politics and the Life Sciences, 16(2), 335-337, 1997.

MacDonald, K. B. Review of Politics and the Life Sciences, 11(1&2), 1992. Politics and the Life Sciences is a publication of the Association for Politics and the Life Sciences. Quarterly Review of Biology, 68 (3), 421-422, 1993.

MacDonald, K. B. Review of The Sociobiological Imagination, edited by Mary Maxwell. Albany, NY: SUNY Press, 1991; Human Ethology Newsletter, 8(2), 8-9, 1992.

MacDonald, K. B. Review of Cooperation and Prosocial Behaviour, R. A. Hinde and J. Groebel (Eds.). Cambridge, UL: Cambridge University Press, 1991. European Sociobiological Society Newsletter, No. 34, April 1994, pp. 11-14.

MacDonald, K. B. An evolutionary perspective on clinical psychology. Review of Human Nature and Suffering, by Paul Gilbert. Hove, U. K.: Academic Press, 1989. Contemporary Psychology, 35, 1040-1041, 1990.

MacDonald, K. B. Review of Attachments in Social Networks, edited by L. W. C. Tavecchio and M. H. van IJzendoorn. Amsterdam: North-Holland, 1987. Child Development Abstracts and Bibliography, 62, (1), 113-114, 1988.

MacDonald, K. B. Review of Individuals, Relationships, and Culture, by Robert Hinde. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 1987. Quarterly Review of Biology, 63, 360-361, 1988.

MacDonald, K. B. Images of human nature. Review of Biology and Freedom, by S. A. Barnett. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 1988. Contemporary Psychology, 35, 341-343, 1990.

MacDonald, K. B. Current progress on research in peer relationships. Review of Peer Relationships in Child Development, edited by Thomas Berndt and Gary Ladd. New York: Wiley, 1989. Contemporary Psychology, 35, 578-579, 199MacDonald, K. B.

MacDonald, K. B. Review of Symbiosis in Parent-offspring Interactions, Edited by L. Rosenblum and H. Moltz. New York: Plenum, 1983. Developmental Psychobiology, 20,(4), 477-484, 1987.

MacDonald, K. B. Review of Development in Middle Childhood, edited by W. A. Collins (National Academy Press, 1984). Child Development Abstracts and Bibliography, 61, 92-93, 1987.

MacDonald, K. B. Review of The Development of Social Cognition, edited by John Pryor and Jeanne Day, Springer-Verlag, 1985. Child Development Abstracts and Bibliography, 60, (2) 320, 1986.

MacDonald, K. B. Review of On the Nature of Human Plasticity by R. Lerner (Cambridge University Press, 1984). Child Development Abstracts and Bibliography, 60, 113-114, 1986.

MacDonald, K. B. Review of The Development of Prosocial Behavior by N. Eisenberg (Academic Press, 1982). Child Development Abstracts and Bibliography, 59, 208-209, 1985.

Ronduck said...

“We always thought of ourselves as a monoculture, but immigration is our present and future,” said Franco Pittau, an official of Caritas, a Roman Catholic social service and development association that, among other things, monitors immigration here.

It is worth noting that Caritas is called 'Catholic Charities' in the United States of America.

http://tinyurl.com/4hvb5o

Z said...

Re:Anonymous Jew

"I'll tell you from personal experience, being a member of the International Jewish Conspiracy (TM) ain't what it used to be. Back in the day, we'd get our fat dividend checks from the Rothschilds every month. Now we have to settle for "man on the street" interviews with the NY Times. Things are tough all over."

---

A typical distortion tactic can be found in the above comment. Trying to paint things as a "conspiracy" without examining the reality regarding the longstanding ethnic, economic, social, and religious conflicts between Jews and Europeans.

As a recent article in the Occidental Observer explains, it is long past time to ignore wild conspiracy theories about the Rothschilds (along with other fanciful theories) and pay more attention to the hard data about Jews and their influence in Western societies: http://www.theoccidentalobserver.com/authors/Lindsay-Rothschilds.html

But regarding the modern day Rothschilds (just for the fun of it) -- before Mikhail Khodorkovsky of Yukos fame was thrown in Russian prison for not paying billions in taxes he was actually able to funnel billions to Jacob Rothschild in London ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3064683.stm ) thus keeping that money 'in the family' so to speak. He also funneled billions to one Leonid Nevzlin (another member of The Tribe) who later fled to Israel before he was to be arrested on similar charges.

Anonymous said...

"Franca Eckert Coen echoed that remark. An Italian Jew in an overwhelmingly Roman Catholic city who lives in an apartment filled with Jewish art, she was in charge of multicultural policy under the former mayor of Rome,"

http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/

Anonymous said...

In the UK the Gypsies (Roma as we are supposed to call them now) seem to fit the bill as regards group evolutionary strategy.

Their collusion is largely exploiting and thieving from the majority population. Theirs was a pretty marginal existence until a generation or two ago. The state now turns a blind eye to their routine non-compliance of regulations and avoidance of taxes, so their economic position has improved.

Their success is not by influencing the elite or joining it but is more of a by-product of the elites giving them a free pass.

Svigor said...

2/ Kevin McDonald's 'group evolutionary strategy', that Darwin seems to have missed, apparently involves exactly one group. No other group of humans (or any other organism) seem to have one. Odd.

'Course it was a bit silly of me to fall into this trap; Jewish exceptionalism is just fine when it's good for the Jews (anti-Semitism? Who else gets their own variant of racism, especially a group as small as Jews?), but when it's not, it's not.

Svigor said...

1/ Darwin. The fellow who created the theory of evolution. Kevin Macdonald is supposedly an 'evolutionary psychologist'.

I could add that Herbert Spencer, Darwin's cousin who created 'Social Darwinism' and thus brought evolution into the social sciences also missed 'group evolutionary strategy'.

In fact everyone who never wrote a trilogy on Jews seems to have missed 'group evolutionary strategy'


Okay, so "lots of people missed it" now? I still don't know WTF that's supposed to mean. How is this relevant?

2/ A little bit about overseas Chinese and a trilogy about Jews and nothing about anyone else?. Sounds like an obsession about Jews instead of science.

Sounds like an argumentum ad hominem, not a valid point. Let's assume for a moment, for the purposes of argument, that this is true. So what? That's what you've got?

The Jews a 'paragon' of 'group evolutionary strategy'? If you write a trilogy about something (and a little bit about overseas Chinese) aren't you saying that the Jews are essentially the only example of this 'group evolutionary strategy'.

No. (I was thinking about this for a few minutes last night, and I'd bet groups like the Amish would be good subjects; by "good" I mean salient.)

MacDonald could just for variety sake write one book about some other entity in the Universe that exhibits this trait.

I assume this is correct.

3/ Anyhow its nice to know he managed to get tenure. But doesn't that fact disprove his theories?

No. But the evidence is mounting that you don't know what those theories are.

Svigor said...

Yes Gypsies (and their white counterparts, Travellers) do seem to fit the bill (groups pursuing relatively obvious evolutionary strategies).

patrick said...

As for my background, I am of Sicilian descent on my father's side, so I have a fairly good knowledge of Italy and its history/culture.
I don't see one Jew (who is, more importantly, a multi-cultist leftist) as responsible for the country's immigration problems, or for the fact that its economy is one of the worst in Western Europe.
That has to do with politicians who are either stupid leftists or crooks (or both) and with the role of organized crime in southern Italy (particularly Campania).*

*The Camorra and Sacra Corona Unita (the Puglian mafia) are heavily involved in human smuggling.

ggg said...

Yes Gypsies (and their white counterparts, Travellers) do seem to fit the bill (groups pursuing relatively obvious evolutionary strategies).

Surely family members aiding one another also qualify? And ethnic groups forming associations and pressure groups? And other religious groups including Islam and Christian demoninations? And nation-states? And economic protectionsts? And those socieities with militaries?

There's nothing *out-there* about Macdonald saying Judaism is a "group evolutionary strategy". What the hell else can it be - God's anti-gentile Word?

In fact - those who say Judaism *isn't* simply a GES, seem to have only one recourse - Jews are as anti-gentile (objectively, unlike "anti-semitism") as Macdonald says because it's God's will.

Svigor said...

6/26/2008

Agreed, but I was looking for more orange to orange comparisons.

Obviously, once we acknowledge that pretty much everyone is pursuing evolutionary strategies (efficient or no), then the retort is "now you're saying everyone does it, so we're back to unfairly singling out Jews," to which the retort is, "it's a question of degree, which varies by group," bla bla bla.

Then we get to do the whole conversation over again in a few days, weeks, or months, as though it's a new one. I think there's a word for this tactic...

tommy said...

MacDonald goes too far at times, but he also makes some good points. I think Jews are inclined to diversity because it allows them to maintain their own lack of diversity in the midst of a majority population. Thus, Ms. Coen can sell diversity to the masses while retaining her ethnocentric art collection. And as our Italian-American anonymous points out, the same Jews who promote diversity often live in remarkably homogeneous neighborhoods. Weaken the majority and Jews and the diminished majority are just two groups among many. By making demands on the majority to accommodate other minorities, Jews ensure their own rights as a minority are secured and as an added bonus they get to display their own moral superiority by demonstrating their tolerance for others.

As for the silly notion that Italian Jews could not possibly approve Muslim immigration, I would point to the example of Dutch Jews who rushed to condemn Geert Wilders' Fitna. Dutch Jews perceive the Dutch as a greater threat to their well-being than Muslim newcomers. One might have guessed the Netherlands would have earned a little more respect from its Jews provided its tolerant history toward the Hebrews. Nope.

Anonymous said...

Svigor,

If I may ask you a meta-question:

How have you benefited personally (if at all) from your study of Kevin MacDonald's theories about Jews? Are you happier? Healthier? Wealthier?

Although I don't share your views about Jews, I had a similar obsession about another group. Then I realized that arguing about it with folks on the internet was a colossal waste of time, and I have since channeled my mental energies into more productive uses (e.g., analyzing investment opportunities, getting in better shape physically, etc.).

Since then, my stress level has gone down, I'm happier, I've lost weight, and I've even stumbled onto business opportunities I would have missed otherwise.

You may interpret the above as a devious attempt on my part to deflect you from the important work you are doing spreading the word about us Jews' evolutionary strategies, but it's really just a bit of friendly advice. Although you call yourself a "Euro" and you probably think I am part of a radically different, Asiatic race (despite my dirty blond hair and pale skin which suggests significant "euro" admixture), we are probably more alike than you might imagine. We're both fairly intelligent, and tend toward being obsessive. We both read iSteve, obviously. We both enjoy arguing with people on the Internet, etc. So consider this what it is: a piece of friendly advice from someone who may have a different world view than you, but nevertheless sees some of himself in you. I have found pragmatism to be liberating. Perhaps you will too.

- Fred

patrick said...

I have no Jewish ancestry that I know of (AFAIK my mother's German ancestors were Catholic) so I do not have an ax to grind (or a bagel to slice :)) one way or another in the debate about Jews.
I just think that Kevin MacDonald's implicit suggestion that Jews are the only ethnoreligious group that has a "group evolutionary strategy", that it is directed exclusively toward European Christians, and that it should be remedied by official discrimination against Jews, are questionable at best.
As an American, I think it is best to call real anti-Semitism ("Protocols" type thinking) out so that the ADL etc can't call legitimate discussion/criticism of Likudnik influence on US foreign policy (e.g. "A Clean Break" and its authors) "anti-Semitic."

reprobate said...

"I just think that Kevin MacDonald's implicit suggestion that Jews are the only ethnoreligious group that has a "group evolutionary strategy", that it is directed exclusively toward European Christians, and that it should be remedied by official discrimination against Jews, are questionable at best."

I think what MacDonald is calling a group evolutionary strategy may well be nothing more than sanctimony and anyone who feels overwhelmed by it just doesn't know how to turn the tables. We all have an ethnoreligious perspective as well as a tendency to believe our moral laws are universal (I'm not getting into moral relativism here.). I also think there are conventions for communicating with someone who holds alternate ethnoreligious views without allowing yourself to be made to appear "guilty" just for holding a different opinion. One strategy may well be to know when to let it be known that you have been insulted by being cast as morally bankrupt.

David said...

anonymous said

Am I the only one that's noticed that the NY Times always interviews a Jewish person, regardless of where they go?[...]I've been seeing this for as long as I've read the paper.

Another interesting NYT factoid: every edition mentions the Holocaust.

No exaggeration. I will tip jar Steve one dollar for every edition anyone finds that omits to mention the Holocaust on some page: whether in the obits, an op-ed reference, news stories, etc. It's to be found in news stories more often than anywhere else. This has never failed.

Here's an old (but significant) joke about the NYT:

What headline would the NYT run if a full-scale nuclear war broke out?

"WORLD ENDS
"Women and minorities hardest hit"

Anonymous said...

"Another interesting NYT factoid: every edition mentions the Holocaust."

Perhaps they are trying to atone for their lack of mention of it while it was actually happening. Or it could simply be that they are based in New York, a city with large Jewish population, including some Holocaust survivors, some of whom are dying every day.

Anonymous said...

"Perhaps they are trying to atone for their lack of mention of it while it was actually happening."

Because, of course, as people of European descent we are all as guilty as the Nazis.

Anonymous said...

"Because, of course, as people of European descent we are all as guilty as the Nazis."

By "people of European descent" I assume you are referring to the Sulzberger family that owns the NY Times? I highly doubt that they, whose newspaper merely ignored the reports of the genocide, feel "as guilty" as the Nazis, who actually committed the genocide.

ben tillman said...

How have you benefited personally (if at all) from your study of Kevin MacDonald's theories about Jews? Are you happier? Healthier? Wealthier?

Obviously, anyone who takes Svigor's position suffers personally. But that's the price paid by anyone who follows a moral code: personal advantage sacrificed for the good of the group. And ultimately it *is* selfish, as there can be no personal future except in the context of the group.

ben tillman said...

I just think that Kevin MacDonald's implicit suggestion that Jews are the only ethnoreligious group that has a "group evolutionary strategy"....

He doesn't suggest that, implicitly or otherwise. The theoretical foundation of MacDonald's work on Jews is that of David Sloan Wilson. Wilson's second book looks at religions generally as "group evolutionary strategies".

Anonymous said...

"including some Holocaust survivors, some of whom are dying every day."

The less there are the more they manage to shake off the evil Germans.

"Claims Conference Obtains $320 Million for Holocaust Survivors in German Negotiations."

http://www.claimscon.org/index.asp?url=negotiations-
June 11 2008

Anonymous said...

"As a recent article in the Occidental Observer explains, it is long past time to ignore wild conspiracy theories about the Rothschilds (along with other fanciful theories) and pay more attention to the hard data about Jews and their influence in Western societies: http://www.theoccidentalobserver.com/authors/Lindsay-Rothschilds.html"

I only have a limited amount of time to read white supremacist literature. If I started reading the Occidental Observer, I'd probably have to severely curtail my perusal of iSteve, which I'm unwilling to do because--despite Steve's "issues" with Jews--Steve actually has interesting things to say.

none of the above said...

Surely the reason why Italians don't feel the need to import other countries' cuisine is obvious to everyone. For rather similar reasons, Americans and Brits do feel the need to import other countries' cuisines.

Anonymous said...

"The less there are the more they manage to shake off the evil Germans."

Speaking as someone whose father was the beneficiary of some of this German largess, you may be happy to know that it came out to about 300 euros per month. Now my mother (his widow) gets 180. Perhaps the trial lawyers who negotiated this settlement for concentration camp slave labor got more.

If you are envious of this money, then perhaps someday you will be fortunate enough to be starved, beaten, degraded, watch your father get killed and thrown in a mass grave, etc. -- and then decades later, receive a similar settlement.

I wish you the best of luck with that.

N.B. Correct English would have been "The fewer there are...".

Anonymous said...

"N.B. Correct English would have been "The fewer there are...".

You're right Mr. 2nd G,my mistake.

Let's meet in a few decades,we'll then compare the American-Israeli largess for the victims of their crimes with the Germans'.

Mike said...

THE LATEST BRILLIANT LIBERAL JEWISH IDEA

Joseph L. writes:
A book by Bernard Avishai, "The Hebrew Republic: How Secular Democracy and Global Enterprise Will Bring Israel Peace at Last," is reviewed in the New York Times.
The answer, Avishai says, in this brilliantly argued book, is not to tinker with symbols but to develop a national consciousness and identity based not on religion, but simply on being Israeli--to remove all privileges accorded to Jews and make Israel a modern, egalitarian democracy. If all Israeli citizens were simply Israelis, rather than Jews, Muslims or Christians, there would be no "demographic threat" to the state's continuation.
Brilliant is understating it! An existential threat to Israel is eliminated with the stroke of a pen. With the entire population become simply "Israeli," Israel is safe by definition!
LA replies:
There's no end to the idiocy of liberals. He's not aware that Arab members of the Knesset openly side with terrorists--and with complete impunity? He's not aware that many or most of the one millions Arab "Israelis" openly side with the Arabs who seek Israel's destruction?
In contrast to Avishai's insane idea, there is the sane proposal of Arieh Eldad to require all Israeli Arabs to take a pledge of loyalty to the state of Israel in order to continue to enjoy political rights in that country.

The only group more out of touch with reality than liberal Jews are the white nationalist anti-Semites, who, following the theories of Kevin MacDonald, believe that the Jews are compelled by Darwinian evolutionary forces to destroy white gentile societies so as to advance their own power. These anti-Semitic idiots haven't noticed that something like half the Jews of Israel (not to mention most Jews in the U.S.) support policies leading to the destruction of the Jewish state. How does THAT fit into the MacDonald thesis of merciless Jewish evolutionary competition against non-Jews?


Posted by Lawrence Auster at June 30, 2008 12:18 AM

ggg said...

Mike,

Laurence Auster says those peoples who would eject Jews from their nations are anti-semitic - which is clearly the greatest 'moral' failing in his eyes... Yet he says Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state... and to discriminate against non-Jews (or 'Gentiles' as he calls them).

Until he allows other peoples to treat Jews as he insists Jews may treat others, he cannot pretend to be 'moral' or even not anti-'gentile'.

The dishonest and straw-man arguments he uses to attack Macdonald are too numerous and broad to mention - perhaps you should just ask him to quote Macdonald saying what Auster attributes. (Or better yet, ask him why he's so interested in Jews, how he identifies them, and how Jews behave). You'll find Macdonald's true views are confirmed.

Anonymous said...

"People of European descent should ask themselves why they are vulnerable to such tactics, when they often fail in other parts of the world."

1500 years of christian morality perhaps? During the last days of the Roman empire, christianity was the marxism of the day.